4 ms·

> They forget to check the percentage that is taken from their salary contributions, what makes it for the middle class at the same high levels of insurance as

by shkkmo 5y ago

> They forget to check the percentage that is taken from their salary contributions, what makes it for the middle class at the same high levels of insurance as in the US. The Netherlands spends half what the US does per person on healthcare. Their taxes seem to be middle of pack for europe. Please provide some citations for the numbers you have cited since at a first approximation they seem to be grossly off.

belter 5y ago
My core point is that what the central bank is worried about is societal control of a very homogeneous society. Even if currently, a democratic one. The least thing he is worried about is investors as he claimed. However we can talk a little bit both about overall Dutch TOTAL income burden plus spent on medical care: Concerning your comment on taxation, I claimed the overall tax burden, is massive not that the income tax for example is the highest in the world. But if you want to talk just income taxation we can start here, and note this is just income tax: "According to the OECD, the country with the highest national income tax rate is the Netherlands at 52 percent, more than 12 percentage points higher than the U.S. top federal individual income rate of 39.6 percent." https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world I am sure we can turn this into a smarter discussion than those statistics based discussions. You know, those ones that try to make us believe, living in some Nordic town where it rains most of the time, its cold and you rarely see the Sun has the "happiest" citizens in the world. Or that Zurich or Luxembourg are the best places to live :-)) Concerning your comment around health I presume you are talking overall spent on citizen care. If the Netherlands spends half of what the US does per person on healthcare that, frankly, is an endorsement of the US system and a confirmation of my point. I am amazed the Netherlands spends that much. Let me explain with some examples: The US habit of suing everybody, forces medical professionals/hospitals to spend a lot of money on very high liability insurance. This is something that almost does not come as a concern in the Netherlands. You can make a claim for medical errors but historically judges are inclined to protect the institutions as they do not have or cannot have high liability insurance: https://www.houthoff.com/insights/News/Doctor-and-hospital-not-liable-for-harm-caused-by-manipulated-PIP-breast-implants https://www.houthoff.com/insights/News/Doctor-and-hospital-n... Also, you might know or not, in the Netherlands, the medical system and medical professional will regularly refuse or make it incredibly difficult to get access to standard procedures. I mean procedures that most industrialized nations consider standard levels of care. This frequently comes as a shock for medical professional from other countries or making the post-graduation at Dutch medical universities. Massive core effect ? By using these implied quotas, the insurance companies get massive amounts of money but have to spend very little. Some of these privatized health insurance companies make more money than some banks ! "Profits skyrocket at 85 Dutch healthcare firms" https://nltimes.nl/2019/09/25/profits-skyrocket-85-dutch-healthcare-firms-report https://nltimes.nl/2019/09/25/profits-skyrocket-85-dutch-hea... This is the reason why Dutch healthcare always comes up in regularly in the news as "Best in the World". It is sometimes used in the US as an example to follow by proponents of socialized medical care. I wish they would look a little bit at the details. The citizens pay a massive amount mandated by law, but private health insurance companies save a massive amount of money. So again, I am surprised, if it is as you stated the costs are half of the US. As any Dutch residents present in this forum will confirm, here are some examples of expensive medical procedures. Expensive procedures the health insurance companies are likely to avoid due to Dutch medical culture. - Dutch women will typically have birth at home or are strongly pressed to have babies at home. It is common to hear from Dutch doctors and I am not making this up: "You are pregnant not sick". I am not dismissing the benefits of child birth as they have positive aspects, but try to suggest a child birth to a German, French or British doctor an see as their eyebrows raise ....Again massive saving for the Insurance company. Side comment: guess where that family who does not pay taxes had all their babies ? At the hospital of course :-) - The amount of pre-natal controls and checks are maybe one or two before a birth. Hospital births are only for exceptional cases or after you strongly insists with their GP. There goes another massive saving for the insurance company and a massive increase in risk for the insured citizen. - Contrarily to most countries in Europe, unless you have a serious conditions very few women regularly are encouraged to see, or allowed by their GP to regularly see a Gynecologist. As these are very expensive specialist again massive savings for the insurance companies. I could go on all day, but it was more about the central bank driving motives than the Dutch medical system.:-) I offer you here, a small data point from somebody used to a different, and cheaper, level of care: https://www.findingdutchland.com/magic-talking-dutch-doctors/ https://www.findingdutchland.com/magic-talking-dutch-doctors...
- shkkmo 5y ago
  I see you have moved the goalposts and have not bothered to actually provide any citations for the numbers from your original posted. Your own link indicates that Netherlands taxes are only slightly above average for OECD countries given their GDP. This would indicate that your original claims were false. The reason why health care costs are lower is a different topic. Your original claim about relative healthcare costs was clearly false.
  - belter 5y ago
    And you are sticking to tables of income and tax rates and claiming that income tax is 51% not 80 or 85%. At the same you decide to ignore my claim was the overall earning you do over you life will be taken away by the state. Surely you can understand the concept of overall tax burden. Although I am simplifying here and not making payroll salary calculation you certainly understand the example like this one. You earn 4000 EUR salary.A very good manager level salary in the Netherlands. Before you get your salary on your hands the state, takes you 51% so you receive 1960 EUR on hands. ( This example is not 100% correct as it is a progressive tax, but lets run with it for the sake of example) From these 1960 EUR you will pay, for a monthly health insurance for a family of three 300 to 350 EUR ( typical) so you are left with 1610 EUR. If you have a modest sized car you are paying 133 EUR per month on average per road tax and overall 80 EUR per month on car insurance. For every kilometer that you drive you are paying a tax on your fuel that is 70 to 80% of your fuel cost as road tax. Remember road maintenance and all those state benefits were supposed to be paid from the 51% of you already provided to the state. Assuming no kilometres driven,while your car sits idle,you are now down to 1397 EUR. Now despite the fact that you already paid to the state 51% they want nothing to do with your water, electricity, garbage collection. For that your local taxes will take you on average another 150 EUR per month, depending on were you live so you are now down to 1247 EUR. We are not done yet because, do you have a dog ? You have to pay tax on it: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/aangifte_doen/andere_belastingen/hondenbelasting/hondenbelasting https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/... Note from these 1247 EUR will be paying VAT at 21% to live. Do you need an Internet connection and some studies for improvement ? Take another 100 EUR per month to out you at 1100 EUR. If you save any money you will have to pay tax on that. Its called the "Taxation on income from savings and investments" In the Netherlands is based on the assumption that people will have a certain taxable return on their net capital. The actual level of return (for example interest, dividend, capital gains or losses) is NOT relevant. No concern if the bank is ( at it is the case at the moment) providing you with a negative interest rate. If from the 500 to 600 EUR you will be left to live, you somewhow are able to accumulate any assets dont worry the state will take you remaining in inherithance tax. Here the rates for 2021: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/erfbelasting/content/tarieven-erfbelasting https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/erfbelasti... Believe or no, there are are other taxes, but now I got tired of writing and I want reiterate my point. There is a Massive overall tax burden of the lifetime of a citizen and frankly the only reason people do not protest is, as I stated that you are either on the side of the receiving state benefits sad misery or middle class enjoying your stated super "high quality of life.". It is certainly much better than undeveloped countries but that is also another discussion and also moving the goal posts...Overall tax burden is my concern here.

by shkkmo 5y ago

belter 5y ago

My core point is that what the central bank is worried about is societal control of a very homogeneous society. Even if currently, a democratic one. The least thing he is worried about is investors as he claimed. However we can talk a little bit both about overall Dutch TOTAL income burden plus spent on medical care: Concerning your comment on taxation, I claimed the overall tax burden, is massive not that the income tax for example is the highest in the world. But if you want to talk just income taxation we can start here, and note this is just income tax: "According to the OECD, the country with the highest national income tax rate is the Netherlands at 52 percent, more than 12 percentage points higher than the U.S. top federal individual income rate of 39.6 percent." https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world I am sure we can turn this into a smarter discussion than those statistics based discussions. You know, those ones that try to make us believe, living in some Nordic town where it rains most of the time, its cold and you rarely see the Sun has the "happiest" citizens in the world. Or that Zurich or Luxembourg are the best places to live :-)) Concerning your comment around health I presume you are talking overall spent on citizen care. If the Netherlands spends half of what the US does per person on healthcare that, frankly, is an endorsement of the US system and a confirmation of my point. I am amazed the Netherlands spends that much. Let me explain with some examples: The US habit of suing everybody, forces medical professionals/hospitals to spend a lot of money on very high liability insurance. This is something that almost does not come as a concern in the Netherlands. You can make a claim for medical errors but historically judges are inclined to protect the institutions as they do not have or cannot have high liability insurance: https://www.houthoff.com/insights/News/Doctor-and-hospital-not-liable-for-harm-caused-by-manipulated-PIP-breast-implants https://www.houthoff.com/insights/News/Doctor-and-hospital-n... Also, you might know or not, in the Netherlands, the medical system and medical professional will regularly refuse or make it incredibly difficult to get access to standard procedures. I mean procedures that most industrialized nations consider standard levels of care. This frequently comes as a shock for medical professional from other countries or making the post-graduation at Dutch medical universities. Massive core effect ? By using these implied quotas, the insurance companies get massive amounts of money but have to spend very little. Some of these privatized health insurance companies make more money than some banks ! "Profits skyrocket at 85 Dutch healthcare firms" https://nltimes.nl/2019/09/25/profits-skyrocket-85-dutch-healthcare-firms-report https://nltimes.nl/2019/09/25/profits-skyrocket-85-dutch-hea... This is the reason why Dutch healthcare always comes up in regularly in the news as "Best in the World". It is sometimes used in the US as an example to follow by proponents of socialized medical care. I wish they would look a little bit at the details. The citizens pay a massive amount mandated by law, but private health insurance companies save a massive amount of money. So again, I am surprised, if it is as you stated the costs are half of the US. As any Dutch residents present in this forum will confirm, here are some examples of expensive medical procedures. Expensive procedures the health insurance companies are likely to avoid due to Dutch medical culture. - Dutch women will typically have birth at home or are strongly pressed to have babies at home. It is common to hear from Dutch doctors and I am not making this up: "You are pregnant not sick". I am not dismissing the benefits of child birth as they have positive aspects, but try to suggest a child birth to a German, French or British doctor an see as their eyebrows raise ....Again massive saving for the Insurance company. Side comment: guess where that family who does not pay taxes had all their babies ? At the hospital of course :-) - The amount of pre-natal controls and checks are maybe one or two before a birth. Hospital births are only for exceptional cases or after you strongly insists with their GP. There goes another massive saving for the insurance company and a massive increase in risk for the insured citizen. - Contrarily to most countries in Europe, unless you have a serious conditions very few women regularly are encouraged to see, or allowed by their GP to regularly see a Gynecologist. As these are very expensive specialist again massive savings for the insurance companies. I could go on all day, but it was more about the central bank driving motives than the Dutch medical system.:-) I offer you here, a small data point from somebody used to a different, and cheaper, level of care: https://www.findingdutchland.com/magic-talking-dutch-doctors/ https://www.findingdutchland.com/magic-talking-dutch-doctors...

shkkmo 5y ago
I see you have moved the goalposts and have not bothered to actually provide any citations for the numbers from your original posted. Your own link indicates that Netherlands taxes are only slightly above average for OECD countries given their GDP. This would indicate that your original claims were false. The reason why health care costs are lower is a different topic. Your original claim about relative healthcare costs was clearly false.
- belter 5y ago
  And you are sticking to tables of income and tax rates and claiming that income tax is 51% not 80 or 85%. At the same you decide to ignore my claim was the overall earning you do over you life will be taken away by the state. Surely you can understand the concept of overall tax burden. Although I am simplifying here and not making payroll salary calculation you certainly understand the example like this one. You earn 4000 EUR salary.A very good manager level salary in the Netherlands. Before you get your salary on your hands the state, takes you 51% so you receive 1960 EUR on hands. ( This example is not 100% correct as it is a progressive tax, but lets run with it for the sake of example) From these 1960 EUR you will pay, for a monthly health insurance for a family of three 300 to 350 EUR ( typical) so you are left with 1610 EUR. If you have a modest sized car you are paying 133 EUR per month on average per road tax and overall 80 EUR per month on car insurance. For every kilometer that you drive you are paying a tax on your fuel that is 70 to 80% of your fuel cost as road tax. Remember road maintenance and all those state benefits were supposed to be paid from the 51% of you already provided to the state. Assuming no kilometres driven,while your car sits idle,you are now down to 1397 EUR. Now despite the fact that you already paid to the state 51% they want nothing to do with your water, electricity, garbage collection. For that your local taxes will take you on average another 150 EUR per month, depending on were you live so you are now down to 1247 EUR. We are not done yet because, do you have a dog ? You have to pay tax on it: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/aangifte_doen/andere_belastingen/hondenbelasting/hondenbelasting https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/... Note from these 1247 EUR will be paying VAT at 21% to live. Do you need an Internet connection and some studies for improvement ? Take another 100 EUR per month to out you at 1100 EUR. If you save any money you will have to pay tax on that. Its called the "Taxation on income from savings and investments" In the Netherlands is based on the assumption that people will have a certain taxable return on their net capital. The actual level of return (for example interest, dividend, capital gains or losses) is NOT relevant. No concern if the bank is ( at it is the case at the moment) providing you with a negative interest rate. If from the 500 to 600 EUR you will be left to live, you somewhow are able to accumulate any assets dont worry the state will take you remaining in inherithance tax. Here the rates for 2021: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/erfbelasting/content/tarieven-erfbelasting https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/nl/erfbelasti... Believe or no, there are are other taxes, but now I got tired of writing and I want reiterate my point. There is a Massive overall tax burden of the lifetime of a citizen and frankly the only reason people do not protest is, as I stated that you are either on the side of the receiving state benefits sad misery or middle class enjoying your stated super "high quality of life.". It is certainly much better than undeveloped countries but that is also another discussion and also moving the goal posts...Overall tax burden is my concern here.