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> I suspect all of this is primarily cultural first, and not related specifically to work, the economy, pricing of good or services like buying a home and start

> I suspect all of this is primarily cultural first, and not related specifically to work, the economy, pricing of good or services like buying a home and starting a family, which would come second. Hmmm I think you're wrong. It sounds like you've got survivorship bias, big time. Most people want to contribute, but the economic system fucks them and makes them dependent. Examples include: the intellectual property regime and monopolistic parasitism of the knowledge commons [1], neoliberal philanthrocapitalism [2] and the completely disgusting and neocolonial division of labour under global capitalism [3]. Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism), or the IRS papers or the Panama Papers and tell me that the system doesn't harm people? [1] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley [2] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals... and https://anthempress.com/kicking-away-the-ladder-pb https://anthempress.com/kicking-away-the-ladder-pb [3] https://anti-imperialism.org/2012/09/18/understanding-and-changing-an-interview-with-zak-cope-author-of-divided-world-divided-class/ https://anti-imperialism.org/2012/09/18/understanding-and-ch... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448175

roenxi 5y ago
> Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism) and tell me the system doesn't harm people? Yeah, someone could do that for any system. "A horrible thing happened somewhere" or even "this part of the market is totally screwed up" are facts about every plausible alternative. So though they may be facts about the current system, they don't tell us how to improve the situation. You can make an argument that the problem is systemic, but having one example of a problem doesn't do anything except score rhetorical points in a game where evidence and argument don't really matter.
tjs8rj 5y ago
Curious: what effect do you think culture has? The economic plays a big role, but there’s a tendency nowadays to call the root problem for everything economic and act like cultural effects are just “holidays and religion” or other marginal effects. The culture has changed dramatically since the 50s when these trends started. For the men, their role has gone from default “protector, provider, head of the home, in charge, theist, conservative, married young” to “equal bread winner, often oppressive, too often toxic, without innate greater purpose or role, etc”. Obviously these are broad generalizations, but we would probably agree that men get a worse wrap now than then (even if that came at the expense of others). Does that large cultural shift have a large effect? Are men lacking purpose now and how much of the current problem men face is because of that cultural shift? The economic is important, but the cultural factors are huge too
- StandardFuture 5y ago
  > The economic plays a big role, but there’s a tendency nowadays to call the root problem for everything economic As with everything on the internet (it sadly seems), there is a necessity for nuanced position. Perhaps, economic and cultural factors are playing a self-reinforcing and thus compounding effect on our society? There are also the non-cultural and non-economic factors such as declining testosterone levels. This could have profound emergent economic and cultural implications that we have not even begun to calculate.
adolph 5y ago
> the economic system [. . .] makes them dependent The emotion of dependency seems less likely to be developed by an economic system than of culture. One might claim that it is difficult to separate one from the other. Taking a cultural or an economic point of view I can see how a hierarchical culture would see participation as zero-sum but not an economic system. An economic system by itself, capitalist pig, pinko commie, feudal manorialism, whatever, is enhanced by participation and a sense of interdependency.
_fat_santa 5y ago
> Most people want to contribute, but the economic system fucks them and makes them dependent. Examples include: the intellectual property regime and monopolistic parasitism of the knowledge commons [1], neoliberal philanthrocapitalism [2] and the completely disgusting and neocolonial division of labour under global capitalism [3]. This line of thinking in my opinion is the problem. Before I start, I will admit I have survivorship bias. The points you mentioned are problems, but in my opinion that's not an excuse. One of your points you mentioned that it's now harder than ever to buy a home because Blackrock is scooping all of them up. While I agree that it certainly makes getting a home harder. I think if anyone truly wants a home and is willing to do whatever they need to in order to get it, they can get it. Same goes for just about everything else, if you want something, and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you can do it. All the problems you mentioned are roadblocks, not showstoppers. I think these days it's easier to just make the excuse that there are all these things standing in our way thus making it impossible for us to do the things our parents did.
- prirun 5y ago
  > I think if anyone truly wants a home and is willing to do whatever they need to in order to get it, they can get it. Same goes for just about everything else, if you want something, and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you can do it. You may be right, but people come in a normal distribution, with most being just average. To "do whatever it takes" implies a person on the extreme right of the distribution, and most people aren't there. So while it may be possible to buy a home, if it takes extreme effort to do it, most people won't. Whereas, when I grew up in the 60's, my dad worked as a bag boy at Kroger, then a meatcutter. We had a small 3br house, 2 kids, a car, a motorcycle, a boat, insurance on all this stuff, and mom worked out of the house doing babysitting and ironing. They were still in their early 20's and got married right out of high school. We eventually had 2 cars while still in this house, around '65. Nothing even remotely like this would be possible today.
  - atweiden 5y ago
    See: 1971 Cost of Living [1]. New House: $25,200.00 Average Income: $10,622.00 per year New Car: $3,560.00 Average Rent: $150.00 per month Tuition to Harvard University: $2,600.00 per year Movie Ticket: $1.50 each Gasoline: 40¢ per gallon United States Postage Stamp: 8¢ each Whether due to currency debasement, globalization, or overpopulation, the disparity in cost of living between the two eras is staggering. [1]: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com https://wtfhappenedin1971.com
andrewmcwatters 5y ago
Perhaps I am. Surely if good paying work was easier to find and homes were approachable more as a commodity then I'm sure this would sort itself out. I've spoken about what REITs do for years on HN. I've worked for them a couple of times as well, so I've seen what goes on first hand.
troupe 5y ago
> Most people want to contribute, but the economic system [...] makes them dependent. The people being discussed here are people without jobs who have a place to live rent free. There is not an economic system holding them back from being able to find a way to contribute because their expenses are very close to $0. For all practical purposes, they have the equivalent of universal basic income. If they would like to write poetry instead of playing video games they could. If they would prefer to paint or write code, they could.
WalterBright 5y ago
Nobody is holding you back from writing a book, painting a picture, or contributing to Open Source.

roenxi 5y ago

> Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism) and tell me the system doesn't harm people? Yeah, someone could do that for any system. "A horrible thing happened somewhere" or even "this part of the market is totally screwed up" are facts about every plausible alternative. So though they may be facts about the current system, they don't tell us how to improve the situation. You can make an argument that the problem is systemic, but having one example of a problem doesn't do anything except score rhetorical points in a game where evidence and argument don't really matter.

tjs8rj 5y ago

Curious: what effect do you think culture has? The economic plays a big role, but there’s a tendency nowadays to call the root problem for everything economic and act like cultural effects are just “holidays and religion” or other marginal effects. The culture has changed dramatically since the 50s when these trends started. For the men, their role has gone from default “protector, provider, head of the home, in charge, theist, conservative, married young” to “equal bread winner, often oppressive, too often toxic, without innate greater purpose or role, etc”. Obviously these are broad generalizations, but we would probably agree that men get a worse wrap now than then (even if that came at the expense of others). Does that large cultural shift have a large effect? Are men lacking purpose now and how much of the current problem men face is because of that cultural shift? The economic is important, but the cultural factors are huge too

StandardFuture 5y ago
> The economic plays a big role, but there’s a tendency nowadays to call the root problem for everything economic As with everything on the internet (it sadly seems), there is a necessity for nuanced position. Perhaps, economic and cultural factors are playing a self-reinforcing and thus compounding effect on our society? There are also the non-cultural and non-economic factors such as declining testosterone levels. This could have profound emergent economic and cultural implications that we have not even begun to calculate.

adolph 5y ago

> the economic system [. . .] makes them dependent The emotion of dependency seems less likely to be developed by an economic system than of culture. One might claim that it is difficult to separate one from the other. Taking a cultural or an economic point of view I can see how a hierarchical culture would see participation as zero-sum but not an economic system. An economic system by itself, capitalist pig, pinko commie, feudal manorialism, whatever, is enhanced by participation and a sense of interdependency.

_fat_santa 5y ago

> Most people want to contribute, but the economic system fucks them and makes them dependent. Examples include: the intellectual property regime and monopolistic parasitism of the knowledge commons [1], neoliberal philanthrocapitalism [2] and the completely disgusting and neocolonial division of labour under global capitalism [3]. This line of thinking in my opinion is the problem. Before I start, I will admit I have survivorship bias. The points you mentioned are problems, but in my opinion that's not an excuse. One of your points you mentioned that it's now harder than ever to buy a home because Blackrock is scooping all of them up. While I agree that it certainly makes getting a home harder. I think if anyone truly wants a home and is willing to do whatever they need to in order to get it, they can get it. Same goes for just about everything else, if you want something, and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you can do it. All the problems you mentioned are roadblocks, not showstoppers. I think these days it's easier to just make the excuse that there are all these things standing in our way thus making it impossible for us to do the things our parents did.

prirun 5y ago
> I think if anyone truly wants a home and is willing to do whatever they need to in order to get it, they can get it. Same goes for just about everything else, if you want something, and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you can do it. You may be right, but people come in a normal distribution, with most being just average. To "do whatever it takes" implies a person on the extreme right of the distribution, and most people aren't there. So while it may be possible to buy a home, if it takes extreme effort to do it, most people won't. Whereas, when I grew up in the 60's, my dad worked as a bag boy at Kroger, then a meatcutter. We had a small 3br house, 2 kids, a car, a motorcycle, a boat, insurance on all this stuff, and mom worked out of the house doing babysitting and ironing. They were still in their early 20's and got married right out of high school. We eventually had 2 cars while still in this house, around '65. Nothing even remotely like this would be possible today.
- atweiden 5y ago
  See: 1971 Cost of Living [1]. New House: $25,200.00 Average Income: $10,622.00 per year New Car: $3,560.00 Average Rent: $150.00 per month Tuition to Harvard University: $2,600.00 per year Movie Ticket: $1.50 each Gasoline: 40¢ per gallon United States Postage Stamp: 8¢ each Whether due to currency debasement, globalization, or overpopulation, the disparity in cost of living between the two eras is staggering. [1]: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com https://wtfhappenedin1971.com

andrewmcwatters 5y ago

Perhaps I am. Surely if good paying work was easier to find and homes were approachable more as a commodity then I'm sure this would sort itself out. I've spoken about what REITs do for years on HN. I've worked for them a couple of times as well, so I've seen what goes on first hand.

troupe 5y ago

> Most people want to contribute, but the economic system [...] makes them dependent. The people being discussed here are people without jobs who have a place to live rent free. There is not an economic system holding them back from being able to find a way to contribute because their expenses are very close to $0. For all practical purposes, they have the equivalent of universal basic income. If they would like to write poetry instead of playing video games they could. If they would prefer to paint or write code, they could.

WalterBright 5y ago

Nobody is holding you back from writing a book, painting a picture, or contributing to Open Source.