5 ms·

They will literally have more money in their pockets. Good things happen when people have more money in their pockets - people save more, invest more, build mo

by dadoge 5y ago

They will literally have more money in their pockets. Good things happen when people have more money in their pockets - people save more, invest more, build more.

ceejayoz 5y ago
I have a sneaking suspicion the folks with "more money in their pockets" from this are most likely to be President Bukele and his friends.
- dadoge 5y ago
  PayPal charges in to 10% for transfers of USD to Eur in Spain. Check you financia privilege before making comments like that
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Why would you use PayPal for remittances?
    - dadoge 5y ago
      Just one example, PayPal is also for peer-2-peer transfers
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        The World Bank provides a table of remittance fees to El Salvador. https://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en/corridor/United-States/El-Salvador https://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en/corridor/United-St... MoneyGram is free if you do it to a bank account. https://imgur.com/a/6B5G2ax https://imgur.com/a/6B5G2ax
        dadoge 5y ago
        Too bad 70% of the population does not have a bank acct there
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        That sounds like an easier problem to solve than tapping a volcano to mine Bitcoin. Perhaps the President should focus on that?
        pietrovismara 5y ago
        > Perhaps the President should focus on that? If his actual goal was to improve people's lives, perhaps...
        kerng 5y ago
        Bitcoin gives them a free bank account. A bank account most can't have or afford.
- garydevenay 5y ago
  > the folks with "more money in their pockets" I would argue that the population who can now operate and opt-out of a USD system where their money is being debased by 20%+ in the last year by a foreign government will be quite a bit better off.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > opt-out of a USD system where their money is being debased by 20%+ in the last year You know Bitcoin has taken a 40% tumble in the last month, right?
    - garydevenay 5y ago
      Valuation and debasement are two very very different things with very different effects. The US created 20% of all the dollars that have ever been created, ever– last year. This is infinitely more harmful than a reduction in price compared to another currency.
- bogota 5y ago
  This seems to be a more and more common “argument” these days. X is happening and it has benefits for Y but it probably has more benefits for Z who i don’t like so its bad. Additionally ill ignore your point completely and only address Z now.
- defgeneric 5y ago
  No, it's a growth-oriented move designed to attract capital to the country.
gjulianm 5y ago
> They will literally have more money in their pockets. That's a big if. Bitcoin transfer fees might be cheaper, but you need to add the cost of converting dollars to bitcoin, plus the volatility of the coin, plus any fees from intermediaries and Lightning nodes. > Good things happen when people have more money in their pockets High amount of remittances are not a cause, but a symptom of underlying problems. Would you be as cavalier about the effects of this on ES economy if it was, say, Western Union saying they'd reduce 10% their transfer fees? It's always the same thing with Bitcoin, apparently it's such a great technology that it can change anything despite the fact that the only "new" thing it can do is to be decentralized. Somehow the argument always ends up being that decreased transfer fees will revolutionize everything (despite the fact that transfer fees might not be lower, and that we've had continuously decreasing transfer fees for years and yet that didn't seem to bring any revolution).
- dadoge 5y ago
  Sooo… do you think it’s better to have higher transfer fees? Seems like a no-brainer win though? Even if it doesn’t revolutionize the country
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    > Sooo... do you think it’s better to have higher transfer fees? So many conversations with Bitcoin advocates involve them putting ridiculous statements into the mouths of others. No one said that or anything like it.
  - gjulianm 5y ago
    Obviously I prefer lower fees. But integrating Bitcoin is not a guarantee that actual, practical fees will be lower. Given the risks of adopting Bitcoin (volatility, fixed economic policy, complexity, difficulty of use), I think potential benefits must be higher than “we maybe get lower transfer fees, or not”.
  - danso 5y ago
    Your original comment claimed that El Salvador spends 22% of its GDP on transfer fees. You've since corrected it to say that the 22% estimate is for the remittances themselves. So why are you acting as if "higher transfer fees" is an accepted premise?
thehappypm 5y ago
Is it actually cheaper to send BTC than it is to wire money directly?

by dadoge 5y ago

They will literally have more money in their pockets. Good things happen when people have more money in their pockets - people save more, invest more, build more.

ceejayoz 5y ago

I have a sneaking suspicion the folks with "more money in their pockets" from this are most likely to be President Bukele and his friends.

dadoge 5y ago
PayPal charges in to 10% for transfers of USD to Eur in Spain. Check you financia privilege before making comments like that
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Why would you use PayPal for remittances?
  - dadoge 5y ago
    Just one example, PayPal is also for peer-2-peer transfers
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      The World Bank provides a table of remittance fees to El Salvador. https://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en/corridor/United-States/El-Salvador https://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en/corridor/United-St... MoneyGram is free if you do it to a bank account. https://imgur.com/a/6B5G2ax https://imgur.com/a/6B5G2ax
      - dadoge 5y ago
        Too bad 70% of the population does not have a bank acct there
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        That sounds like an easier problem to solve than tapping a volcano to mine Bitcoin. Perhaps the President should focus on that?
        pietrovismara 5y ago
        > Perhaps the President should focus on that? If his actual goal was to improve people's lives, perhaps...
      - kerng 5y ago
        Bitcoin gives them a free bank account. A bank account most can't have or afford.
garydevenay 5y ago
> the folks with "more money in their pockets" I would argue that the population who can now operate and opt-out of a USD system where their money is being debased by 20%+ in the last year by a foreign government will be quite a bit better off.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > opt-out of a USD system where their money is being debased by 20%+ in the last year You know Bitcoin has taken a 40% tumble in the last month, right?
  - garydevenay 5y ago
    Valuation and debasement are two very very different things with very different effects. The US created 20% of all the dollars that have ever been created, ever– last year. This is infinitely more harmful than a reduction in price compared to another currency.
bogota 5y ago
This seems to be a more and more common “argument” these days. X is happening and it has benefits for Y but it probably has more benefits for Z who i don’t like so its bad. Additionally ill ignore your point completely and only address Z now.
defgeneric 5y ago
No, it's a growth-oriented move designed to attract capital to the country.

gjulianm 5y ago

> They will literally have more money in their pockets. That's a big if. Bitcoin transfer fees might be cheaper, but you need to add the cost of converting dollars to bitcoin, plus the volatility of the coin, plus any fees from intermediaries and Lightning nodes. > Good things happen when people have more money in their pockets High amount of remittances are not a cause, but a symptom of underlying problems. Would you be as cavalier about the effects of this on ES economy if it was, say, Western Union saying they'd reduce 10% their transfer fees? It's always the same thing with Bitcoin, apparently it's such a great technology that it can change anything despite the fact that the only "new" thing it can do is to be decentralized. Somehow the argument always ends up being that decreased transfer fees will revolutionize everything (despite the fact that transfer fees might not be lower, and that we've had continuously decreasing transfer fees for years and yet that didn't seem to bring any revolution).

dadoge 5y ago
Sooo… do you think it’s better to have higher transfer fees? Seems like a no-brainer win though? Even if it doesn’t revolutionize the country
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  > Sooo... do you think it’s better to have higher transfer fees? So many conversations with Bitcoin advocates involve them putting ridiculous statements into the mouths of others. No one said that or anything like it.
- gjulianm 5y ago
  Obviously I prefer lower fees. But integrating Bitcoin is not a guarantee that actual, practical fees will be lower. Given the risks of adopting Bitcoin (volatility, fixed economic policy, complexity, difficulty of use), I think potential benefits must be higher than “we maybe get lower transfer fees, or not”.
- danso 5y ago
  Your original comment claimed that El Salvador spends 22% of its GDP on transfer fees. You've since corrected it to say that the 22% estimate is for the remittances themselves. So why are you acting as if "higher transfer fees" is an accepted premise?

thehappypm 5y ago

Is it actually cheaper to send BTC than it is to wire money directly?