30 ms·

I hear this discussion also on this side of the pond and I just don't get it: why not reviving public transport? I can't see how even more car-friendly policies

by soco 5y ago

I hear this discussion also on this side of the pond and I just don't get it: why not reviving public transport? I can't see how even more car-friendly policies - self-driven cars or not - can make the roads more available... I'm in Switzerland and short or long distance, public transport gets you in comparable times with driving. Maybe not for some godforsaken places where you need to switch three buses, but 90% of the trips you're within 20% of the direct drive time (and parking time is never counted).

zemvpferreira 5y ago
Here in Portugal the louder voices speak for public transit - greener, fairer, etc etc. You know the usual arguments. Unfortunately massive public works are by far our biggest source of grifting. It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Maybe Switzerland doesn't have this problem, but I'm all for solutions that take funds away from our politician's hands. And the car is great in that respect, as long as you don't advocate to increase road capacity at a massive cost.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic. The best system for any given atea is going to depend on density and local demand.
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    It can, but it won't be in Lisbon, unless we completely reform the public sector first. If that's our hope we might as well get used to the current situation.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic Yeah, but their downsides (noise, vibrations, visibility) make them impractical for new projects in most old cities.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Hm. What do you think of the taxes on top of the costs for fuel/gas, then? And how they relate to the 'peanuts' for some metro?
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    That's fair enough, I'm pinning my hopes on the electric car/bike coming down in price enough to make them viable for our commuters in the next 5 years. Still, if we don't have massive public works, it's a lot harder to fill politician's pockets on the side.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      Hmmm. Ok. From my german point of view I wouldn't bet on energy getting cheaper anytime soon, no matter if electric, hydrogen, or any other fuels. "Vee arr ze stupid cows being milked until implosion!" Moooo! ;->
      - zemvpferreira 5y ago
        Not so worried about energy cost as I am purchase price ;)
- soco 5y ago
  There aren't such big cities in Switzerland to actually need a metro. Surface transport does just fine, plus some transit trains going under where it can't be avoided. So yes lately many investments go in new train tunnels, you can load your car and go that way for really long distances or across mountains, you have the sleeping wagons back in fashion, you can send your heavy luggage ahead via same train for a minor charge, you have night transport for when you come back drunk from clubbing... so you can keep your car for the casual shopping trip and for taxiing kid's football team to the weekend match. Not much need otherwise, and yes, it works already.
tbihl 5y ago
It's more painful in the US because so much of our built environment is not at a human scale conducive to public transit. Transit uses an implied hub and spoke network system where the base level of spoke is walking, then some combination of buses/trains/subways integrating those walk-sheds. For huge areas of the country (and yes, this includes those classified as "urban"), the distances are too long, and the scenery too hostile or unexciting, to encourage walking. The more this happens, the more people want cars, and everything about accommodating cars (vs accommodating those on foot) worsens the area for human use: heat islands from parking and roads, danger from the same, dead landscapes, etc. Part of the problem is that cars are great for GDP (road building/maintenence, New rings of suburbs every generation as people flee the old ones, the whole car ecosystem) and horrible for building wealth, and ultimately national policy is all about GDP. The inertia of this ugly system keeps cars nearly necessary to live and work in most places. And you can live in ways that avoid car use, but all entertainment and recreation and your friends are inaccessible without cars because most people pick the car option when faced with the question. All of this means that there's no critical mass of people using transit to push for high level of service, and buses (and in some regions trains too) become filthy places to avoid.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Transit uses an implied hub and spoke network system where the base level of spoke is walking, then some combination of buses/trains/subways integrating those walk-sheds. Not necessarily. Minibuses, bikes, e-scooters, even cars (park and ride, a big parking next to a train station; you get off the train and on your car for the last/first part of your trip) are perfectly viable "last mile" options.
  - supertrope 5y ago
    I prefer not to get killed in a traffic crash. Even personal mobility requires infrastructure like fully separated bike lanes and multi-use trails. A white paint line or sharrows is a joke. We have level of service standards for roads and highways. But for pedestrians and bicyclists there's no standards for sidewalks on every street, bus stop quality, tree canopy, protection from speeding SUV drivers, crosswalks, bike racks, etc.

by soco 5y ago

zemvpferreira 5y ago

Here in Portugal the louder voices speak for public transit - greener, fairer, etc etc. You know the usual arguments. Unfortunately massive public works are by far our biggest source of grifting. It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Maybe Switzerland doesn't have this problem, but I'm all for solutions that take funds away from our politician's hands. And the car is great in that respect, as long as you don't advocate to increase road capacity at a massive cost.

zozbot234 5y ago
> It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic. The best system for any given atea is going to depend on density and local demand.
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  It can, but it won't be in Lisbon, unless we completely reform the public sector first. If that's our hope we might as well get used to the current situation.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic Yeah, but their downsides (noise, vibrations, visibility) make them impractical for new projects in most old cities.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
Hm. What do you think of the taxes on top of the costs for fuel/gas, then? And how they relate to the 'peanuts' for some metro?
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  That's fair enough, I'm pinning my hopes on the electric car/bike coming down in price enough to make them viable for our commuters in the next 5 years. Still, if we don't have massive public works, it's a lot harder to fill politician's pockets on the side.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    Hmmm. Ok. From my german point of view I wouldn't bet on energy getting cheaper anytime soon, no matter if electric, hydrogen, or any other fuels. "Vee arr ze stupid cows being milked until implosion!" Moooo! ;->
    - zemvpferreira 5y ago
      Not so worried about energy cost as I am purchase price ;)
soco 5y ago
There aren't such big cities in Switzerland to actually need a metro. Surface transport does just fine, plus some transit trains going under where it can't be avoided. So yes lately many investments go in new train tunnels, you can load your car and go that way for really long distances or across mountains, you have the sleeping wagons back in fashion, you can send your heavy luggage ahead via same train for a minor charge, you have night transport for when you come back drunk from clubbing... so you can keep your car for the casual shopping trip and for taxiing kid's football team to the weekend match. Not much need otherwise, and yes, it works already.

tbihl 5y ago

It's more painful in the US because so much of our built environment is not at a human scale conducive to public transit. Transit uses an implied hub and spoke network system where the base level of spoke is walking, then some combination of buses/trains/subways integrating those walk-sheds. For huge areas of the country (and yes, this includes those classified as "urban"), the distances are too long, and the scenery too hostile or unexciting, to encourage walking. The more this happens, the more people want cars, and everything about accommodating cars (vs accommodating those on foot) worsens the area for human use: heat islands from parking and roads, danger from the same, dead landscapes, etc. Part of the problem is that cars are great for GDP (road building/maintenence, New rings of suburbs every generation as people flee the old ones, the whole car ecosystem) and horrible for building wealth, and ultimately national policy is all about GDP. The inertia of this ugly system keeps cars nearly necessary to live and work in most places. And you can live in ways that avoid car use, but all entertainment and recreation and your friends are inaccessible without cars because most people pick the car option when faced with the question. All of this means that there's no critical mass of people using transit to push for high level of service, and buses (and in some regions trains too) become filthy places to avoid.

sofixa 5y ago
> Transit uses an implied hub and spoke network system where the base level of spoke is walking, then some combination of buses/trains/subways integrating those walk-sheds. Not necessarily. Minibuses, bikes, e-scooters, even cars (park and ride, a big parking next to a train station; you get off the train and on your car for the last/first part of your trip) are perfectly viable "last mile" options.
- supertrope 5y ago
  I prefer not to get killed in a traffic crash. Even personal mobility requires infrastructure like fully separated bike lanes and multi-use trails. A white paint line or sharrows is a joke. We have level of service standards for roads and highways. But for pedestrians and bicyclists there's no standards for sidewalks on every street, bus stop quality, tree canopy, protection from speeding SUV drivers, crosswalks, bike racks, etc.