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Another popular payment option is to pay by invoice. Obviously this means the merchant assumes (almost) all the risk. Hence this option is not available most of

Another popular payment option is to pay by invoice. Obviously this means the merchant assumes (almost) all the risk. Hence this option is not available most of the time. As for the question why people would choose to pay in advance? From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card and didn't trust/didn't want to have a business relationship with PayPal, leaving Vorkasse as the only available payment option. Another point that has been brought up was the perception that the bank transfer would be more secure, as in "if they have my credit card info/PayPal account, they can just charge me at any time". The fact that bank account information also enables you to debit the account is curiously often forgotten. Is this a particular sensible position to take? Maybe not, but not everyone acts sensibly all the time.

charsi 5y ago
Lots of websites in India also offer payment via bank account, including amazon.in. The benefit from my POV was the same as you describe. I don't want random websites to have my credit card info and I don't want to deal with paypal. Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info. But the merchant just redirects to your bank as part of the payment flow. The bank knows how much money the merchant wants and you authorize it for that one transaction. Bank redirects back to the merchant who confirms the payment was successful. They can't make any further charges at a later date.
- logifail 5y ago
  > Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info Tell that to the people behind the "Sofortüberweisung" [ roughly: "Immediate bank transfer"] scheme - run by Sofort GmbH, now part of Klarna. I've seen this offered several times but never (dared to) try it personally, but by all accounts* it works something like this: At the merchant's checkout page you are offered choice of payment methods, Sofortüberweisung is on the list, you select it, then you end up on a third-party site(!) where you provide the login details to your bank account(!!) including PIN and/or one-time TAN(!!!). The third party site checks your balance, then executes a transfer to the merchant for the total of your cart, then confirms the transaction to the merchant. When I first read about how this works, I assumed I'd understood it wrong. From a security PoV, doesn't this make one's skin crawl? * sorry, pun intended ;)
  - charsi 5y ago
    Yep this flow is ripe for phishing. But I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak. With bank payments I just have to be careful to check I am actually at the bank website when entering the login info. Makes me feel more in control. I guess people in the west were already used to giving out their card info over the phone to make purchases so wasn't a big deal when online sites started doing it. In India credit cards were still not wide spread (still aren't) in the early 2000s.
    - logifail 5y ago
      > I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak Even if you know that your card provider will refund you if the card leaks? In the last decade I've twice had a credit card cloned, and twice I've been pleasantly surprised how quickly the card provider a) detected the issue, b) blocked the old card and re-issued a new card, and c) refunded the fraudent transactions. Based on that, I'd trust my credit card provider far more than my bank(s).
      - Cu3PO42 5y ago
        Which cards are you using? AMEX? For the most commonly accepted schemes in Europe, i.e., Visa and MasterCard, requesting a chargeback typically goes through your card issuer which almost always is your bank.
        logifail 5y ago
        > requesting a chargeback Don't chargebanks typically involve a dispute between buyer and merchant? In neither of the instances where I personally experienced card fraud was the typical chargeback process involked, both times I had to confirm which recent transasctions were and weren't "mine", and after that the card provider did all the running. The second time I had many thousands of euros of fraudulent transactions refunded onto my account within 48h of the fraud being detected by the card issuer. > your card issuer which almost always is your bank Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I trust how credit-card-issuing-banks (in my case it was Barclaycard ie Barclays PLC) treat their card customers more than I trust current/checking/giro account banks treat _their_ customers. It makes a lot of sense when you think about the underlying incentives to treat customers well. Changing your current/checking/giro account can take quite a lot of work and has the potential to cause problems for a long time. Applying for a new credit card takes a few minutes and the entire process is complete in a few days.
- Cu3PO42 5y ago
  > Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info. It's nice that it works that way for you, but it does in Germany. You don't need to hand over your login information or anything, but wiring money in any form means that they have your account number. The account number is sufficient to debit the account at a later point. Obviously they're not allowed to do that without your explicit consent, but a malicious actor could.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    If you mean that some organization (not an individual) could Direct Debit you, then you have to hive your bank an explicit agreement for that. If you do not, you reject the payment and it is now the bank problem. An IBAN is never a secret.
    - Cu3PO42 5y ago
      Yes, you can have the charge reversed, but they can still make the charge initially. In that sense it is no different from a credit card: if they have your info, they can charge you again and you can have the charge reversed.
      - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
        Direct Debit requires a special license - this is not something any company can dio. Making a fraudulent charge will have this license revoked. The authorization from the person being debited is required but in practical terms it does not always happen. People request DD and then forget to make the paperwork (today this is better because more and more DD agreements is arranged electronically). The bank will the allow the DD without the paperwork to make it easier for everyone (and ask the case to be fixed). In any case this i stheir risk but in the vast majority of cases it works.
        Cu3PO42 5y ago
        > Making a fraudulent charge will have this license revoked. Absolutely, but the same is true for credit card charges as well. Your acquirer will terminate your contract if you make fraudulent charges against credit/debit cards. I am not arguing that you shouldn't wire money or use direct debit. I am just pointing out that it carries much of the same risks to the consumer as using a credit or debit card. (Which is virtually none since you can have charges revoked.) This observation is, in my opinion, relevant since many people in Germany seem to think that one is much safer than the other.
logifail 5y ago
> From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card [..] [It's a while since I lived and worked in Germany] are there many people who have a current/checking/Giro account but where this isn't a standard payment card linked to their account which is also a Visa or Mastercard compatible card?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Cu3PO42 5y ago
  Your standard checking account will (almost) always come with a girocard, which is a national debit card scheme. It can be used to pay in stores, but not online. These cards are typically co-branded with either Maestro or V-Pay, so they can be used on the MC/Visa networks if you're outside of Germany. However, the latter functionality is also restricted to card present transactions. You just cannot use these cards to pay online.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > girocard [..] I'm sure you understand this better than I do (and I don't just mean because the language!) but aren't banks like Sparkasse offering any online payment functionality with Girocard ? eg: https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezahlverfahren/giropay.html https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezah... "Mit giropay können Sie sicher online bezahlen" (freely translated): "you can pay safely online with giropay"
    - Cu3PO42 5y ago
      Banks are offering online payment functionality with giropay and other solutions. This is, however, a fully separate product with a similar name. It was quite late to the market and isn't universally supported by online shops. It doesn't come with your girocard, is also not supported by all banks, and requires that the customer use online banking. I would venture that the intersection between people who prefer to wire the money in advance and people who do not use online banking is quite big. EDIT: The old iteration of giropay (I'm not yet familiar with the new one) was quite similar to Sofort (previously Sofortüberweisung) except not run by a third party, but by your bank. It executed a normal wire transfer and confirmed to the merchant that the transfer had been ordered. In that sense it has the exact same risks as normal "Vorkasse", but did not incur the day of delay for the transfer to go through.

charsi 5y ago

Lots of websites in India also offer payment via bank account, including amazon.in. The benefit from my POV was the same as you describe. I don't want random websites to have my credit card info and I don't want to deal with paypal. Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info. But the merchant just redirects to your bank as part of the payment flow. The bank knows how much money the merchant wants and you authorize it for that one transaction. Bank redirects back to the merchant who confirms the payment was successful. They can't make any further charges at a later date.

logifail 5y ago
> Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info Tell that to the people behind the "Sofortüberweisung" [ roughly: "Immediate bank transfer"] scheme - run by Sofort GmbH, now part of Klarna. I've seen this offered several times but never (dared to) try it personally, but by all accounts* it works something like this: At the merchant's checkout page you are offered choice of payment methods, Sofortüberweisung is on the list, you select it, then you end up on a third-party site(!) where you provide the login details to your bank account(!!) including PIN and/or one-time TAN(!!!). The third party site checks your balance, then executes a transfer to the merchant for the total of your cart, then confirms the transaction to the merchant. When I first read about how this works, I assumed I'd understood it wrong. From a security PoV, doesn't this make one's skin crawl? * sorry, pun intended ;)
- charsi 5y ago
  Yep this flow is ripe for phishing. But I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak. With bank payments I just have to be careful to check I am actually at the bank website when entering the login info. Makes me feel more in control. I guess people in the west were already used to giving out their card info over the phone to make purchases so wasn't a big deal when online sites started doing it. In India credit cards were still not wide spread (still aren't) in the early 2000s.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak Even if you know that your card provider will refund you if the card leaks? In the last decade I've twice had a credit card cloned, and twice I've been pleasantly surprised how quickly the card provider a) detected the issue, b) blocked the old card and re-issued a new card, and c) refunded the fraudent transactions. Based on that, I'd trust my credit card provider far more than my bank(s).
    - Cu3PO42 5y ago
      Which cards are you using? AMEX? For the most commonly accepted schemes in Europe, i.e., Visa and MasterCard, requesting a chargeback typically goes through your card issuer which almost always is your bank.
      - logifail 5y ago
        > requesting a chargeback Don't chargebanks typically involve a dispute between buyer and merchant? In neither of the instances where I personally experienced card fraud was the typical chargeback process involked, both times I had to confirm which recent transasctions were and weren't "mine", and after that the card provider did all the running. The second time I had many thousands of euros of fraudulent transactions refunded onto my account within 48h of the fraud being detected by the card issuer. > your card issuer which almost always is your bank Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I trust how credit-card-issuing-banks (in my case it was Barclaycard ie Barclays PLC) treat their card customers more than I trust current/checking/giro account banks treat _their_ customers. It makes a lot of sense when you think about the underlying incentives to treat customers well. Changing your current/checking/giro account can take quite a lot of work and has the potential to cause problems for a long time. Applying for a new credit card takes a few minutes and the entire process is complete in a few days.
Cu3PO42 5y ago
> Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info. It's nice that it works that way for you, but it does in Germany. You don't need to hand over your login information or anything, but wiring money in any form means that they have your account number. The account number is sufficient to debit the account at a later point. Obviously they're not allowed to do that without your explicit consent, but a malicious actor could.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  If you mean that some organization (not an individual) could Direct Debit you, then you have to hive your bank an explicit agreement for that. If you do not, you reject the payment and it is now the bank problem. An IBAN is never a secret.
  - Cu3PO42 5y ago
    Yes, you can have the charge reversed, but they can still make the charge initially. In that sense it is no different from a credit card: if they have your info, they can charge you again and you can have the charge reversed.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      Direct Debit requires a special license - this is not something any company can dio. Making a fraudulent charge will have this license revoked. The authorization from the person being debited is required but in practical terms it does not always happen. People request DD and then forget to make the paperwork (today this is better because more and more DD agreements is arranged electronically). The bank will the allow the DD without the paperwork to make it easier for everyone (and ask the case to be fixed). In any case this i stheir risk but in the vast majority of cases it works.
      - Cu3PO42 5y ago
        > Making a fraudulent charge will have this license revoked. Absolutely, but the same is true for credit card charges as well. Your acquirer will terminate your contract if you make fraudulent charges against credit/debit cards. I am not arguing that you shouldn't wire money or use direct debit. I am just pointing out that it carries much of the same risks to the consumer as using a credit or debit card. (Which is virtually none since you can have charges revoked.) This observation is, in my opinion, relevant since many people in Germany seem to think that one is much safer than the other.

logifail 5y ago

> From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card [..] [It's a while since I lived and worked in Germany] are there many people who have a current/checking/Giro account but where this isn't a standard payment card linked to their account which is also a Visa or Mastercard compatible card?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Cu3PO42 5y ago
Your standard checking account will (almost) always come with a girocard, which is a national debit card scheme. It can be used to pay in stores, but not online. These cards are typically co-branded with either Maestro or V-Pay, so they can be used on the MC/Visa networks if you're outside of Germany. However, the latter functionality is also restricted to card present transactions. You just cannot use these cards to pay online.
- logifail 5y ago
  > girocard [..] I'm sure you understand this better than I do (and I don't just mean because the language!) but aren't banks like Sparkasse offering any online payment functionality with Girocard ? eg: https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezahlverfahren/giropay.html https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezah... "Mit giropay können Sie sicher online bezahlen" (freely translated): "you can pay safely online with giropay"
  - Cu3PO42 5y ago
    Banks are offering online payment functionality with giropay and other solutions. This is, however, a fully separate product with a similar name. It was quite late to the market and isn't universally supported by online shops. It doesn't come with your girocard, is also not supported by all banks, and requires that the customer use online banking. I would venture that the intersection between people who prefer to wire the money in advance and people who do not use online banking is quite big. EDIT: The old iteration of giropay (I'm not yet familiar with the new one) was quite similar to Sofort (previously Sofortüberweisung) except not run by a third party, but by your bank. It executed a normal wire transfer and confirmed to the merchant that the transfer had been ordered. In that sense it has the exact same risks as normal "Vorkasse", but did not incur the day of delay for the transfer to go through.