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Two questions: - will those moves make the country a good location for laundering bitcoins? - generally speaking, is there no other way of profiting from surp

Two questions: - will those moves make the country a good location for laundering bitcoins? - generally speaking, is there no other way of profiting from surplus electricity (which essentially, this is)?

dadoge 5y ago
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/technology/bitcoin-untraceable-pipeline-ransomware.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/tech... Nah. Bitcoin is actually a lot easier to trace than paper US Dollars.
- ostenning 5y ago
  Exactly, people who claim btc is anonymous don’t know what they are talking about. You can literally trace every transaction ever made, and given nearly all on-off ramps to fiat require KYC, btc itself is not the problem. The problem comes from privacy coins like Monero, which arguably should be outlawed (if not already)
  - Hendrikto 5y ago
    > The problem comes from privacy coins like Monero, which arguably should be outlawed (if not already) You cannot (and should not try to) outlaw maths.
  - jMyles 5y ago
    Can you imagine the price spike the day that's announced? But also: outlaw where? Math doesn't recognize borders; the two are like oil and water.
  - cinntaile 5y ago
    Regarding privacy coins... This sounds a bit dystopian though, why do you think the state should have a right to see your entire transaction history?
  - selsta 5y ago
    > The problem comes from privacy coins like Monero, which arguably should be outlawed (if not already) Are you also in favour of outlawing Tor, E2EE, HTTPS? I am always surprised that some people want privacy outlawed. Disclaimer: Monero contributor
kcmastrpc 5y ago
- given the economies of scale, im guessing that the major 1st world countries will continue to be the most prolific in terms of bitcoin laundering - of course there are other ways, but given the return on kW/h, what's the _most_ profitable?
vondro 5y ago
> generally speaking, is there no other way of profiting from surplus electricity (which essentially, this is)? Making hydrogen, smelting aluminium, de-salinating water. But bitcoin can be transferred over internet, so the logistics is easier.
- kcmastrpc 5y ago
  unless the US ramps up nuclear or renewables to a level as of yet unseen, i can see the US building fresh water pipelines to central america in the next 25-50 years.
  - vondro 5y ago
    That made me read a bit about the US water problem. But - why not take water from the Great Lakes?
conjectures 5y ago
> other way Undoubtedly there is, e.g. steel making - with the attendant logistical challenges. But few ways to fairly directly convert electricity into money.
garydevenay 5y ago
In the case of laundering Bitcoin— this seems to be a majorly misunderstood concept. Bitcoin transactions are completely transparent and observable by everyone who has an internet connection. Anyone (with an internet connection) can watch any wallet and observe any and all transactions. The notion of a country being a "good location for laundering bitcoins" doesn't really make sense, as Bitcoin are never in a location. In terms of profiting from surplus electricity, Bitcoin (or cryptocurrency mining in general) is a great option as it's exceptionally simple to scale up and down in accordance with available cheap surplus. One major benefit that miners are taking advantage of is locating in close proximity to energy stations, reducing the inefficiency of transporting electrical energy over distance. This turns effectively "wasted" energy in to a solidly efficient energy store for infinite amount of time— for example: 1 BTC will always be equal to 1/21000000 of the total supply.
- StavrosK 5y ago
  I agree with the rest of your comment, but there's some sleight of hand here: > This turns effectively "wasted" energy in to a solidly efficient energy store for infinite amount of time— for example: 1 BTC will always be equal to 1/21000000 of the total supply. It's not an efficient energy store if you can't get the energy back, it's just energy usage. Also, yes, 1 BTC will always be the same fraction of the total supply, but the actual value of it varies.
  - garydevenay 5y ago
    I think that's a fair comment. Re-using the word "energy" in that sense is potentially misleading to always mean electrical energy. As for the value of 1 BTC, it's value fluctuates if you operate on a base currency which is not BTC, but that is the same for any currency exchange. (I am suggesting currency, though I also understand that BTC may not be unanimously agreed on as a currency— but in El Salvador's case it is)
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      > As for the value of 1 BTC, it's value fluctuates if you operate on a base currency which is not BTC, but that is the same for any currency exchange. Yes but also, even though 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, the amount of work it buys you won't be the same, as with any currency. In theory, you can also store USD for an infinite amount of time (assuming you exchange the paper for new paper when it decays), but it, too, won't hold its value.

dadoge 5y ago

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/technology/bitcoin-untraceable-pipeline-ransomware.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/tech... Nah. Bitcoin is actually a lot easier to trace than paper US Dollars.

ostenning 5y ago
Exactly, people who claim btc is anonymous don’t know what they are talking about. You can literally trace every transaction ever made, and given nearly all on-off ramps to fiat require KYC, btc itself is not the problem. The problem comes from privacy coins like Monero, which arguably should be outlawed (if not already)
- Hendrikto 5y ago
  > The problem comes from privacy coins like Monero, which arguably should be outlawed (if not already) You cannot (and should not try to) outlaw maths.
- jMyles 5y ago
  Can you imagine the price spike the day that's announced? But also: outlaw where? Math doesn't recognize borders; the two are like oil and water.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  Regarding privacy coins... This sounds a bit dystopian though, why do you think the state should have a right to see your entire transaction history?
- selsta 5y ago
  > The problem comes from privacy coins like Monero, which arguably should be outlawed (if not already) Are you also in favour of outlawing Tor, E2EE, HTTPS? I am always surprised that some people want privacy outlawed. Disclaimer: Monero contributor

kcmastrpc 5y ago

- given the economies of scale, im guessing that the major 1st world countries will continue to be the most prolific in terms of bitcoin laundering - of course there are other ways, but given the return on kW/h, what's the _most_ profitable?

vondro 5y ago

> generally speaking, is there no other way of profiting from surplus electricity (which essentially, this is)? Making hydrogen, smelting aluminium, de-salinating water. But bitcoin can be transferred over internet, so the logistics is easier.

kcmastrpc 5y ago
unless the US ramps up nuclear or renewables to a level as of yet unseen, i can see the US building fresh water pipelines to central america in the next 25-50 years.
- vondro 5y ago
  That made me read a bit about the US water problem. But - why not take water from the Great Lakes?

conjectures 5y ago

> other way Undoubtedly there is, e.g. steel making - with the attendant logistical challenges. But few ways to fairly directly convert electricity into money.

garydevenay 5y ago

In the case of laundering Bitcoin— this seems to be a majorly misunderstood concept. Bitcoin transactions are completely transparent and observable by everyone who has an internet connection. Anyone (with an internet connection) can watch any wallet and observe any and all transactions. The notion of a country being a "good location for laundering bitcoins" doesn't really make sense, as Bitcoin are never in a location. In terms of profiting from surplus electricity, Bitcoin (or cryptocurrency mining in general) is a great option as it's exceptionally simple to scale up and down in accordance with available cheap surplus. One major benefit that miners are taking advantage of is locating in close proximity to energy stations, reducing the inefficiency of transporting electrical energy over distance. This turns effectively "wasted" energy in to a solidly efficient energy store for infinite amount of time— for example: 1 BTC will always be equal to 1/21000000 of the total supply.

StavrosK 5y ago
I agree with the rest of your comment, but there's some sleight of hand here: > This turns effectively "wasted" energy in to a solidly efficient energy store for infinite amount of time— for example: 1 BTC will always be equal to 1/21000000 of the total supply. It's not an efficient energy store if you can't get the energy back, it's just energy usage. Also, yes, 1 BTC will always be the same fraction of the total supply, but the actual value of it varies.
- garydevenay 5y ago
  I think that's a fair comment. Re-using the word "energy" in that sense is potentially misleading to always mean electrical energy. As for the value of 1 BTC, it's value fluctuates if you operate on a base currency which is not BTC, but that is the same for any currency exchange. (I am suggesting currency, though I also understand that BTC may not be unanimously agreed on as a currency— but in El Salvador's case it is)
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    > As for the value of 1 BTC, it's value fluctuates if you operate on a base currency which is not BTC, but that is the same for any currency exchange. Yes but also, even though 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, the amount of work it buys you won't be the same, as with any currency. In theory, you can also store USD for an infinite amount of time (assuming you exchange the paper for new paper when it decays), but it, too, won't hold its value.