6 ms·

> that most people are too lazy to do this sort of background check before they buy something online To be honest that does seem like an awful lot of detective

> that most people are too lazy to do this sort of background check before they buy something online To be honest that does seem like an awful lot of detective work especially if this would be for a simple online purchase, particularly if the transaction value isn't that high. In many countries you would typically pay online using a credit card or Paypal in which case the card issuer/bank/Paypal provides you with a degree of protection if a product doesn't turn up or isn't what you ordered. In Germany I believe people still are used to there being the option to pay using "Vorkasse" (paying in advance, by bank transfer). I've simply never understood why any buyer would want to assume all the risk by doing that.

Cu3PO42 5y ago
Another popular payment option is to pay by invoice. Obviously this means the merchant assumes (almost) all the risk. Hence this option is not available most of the time. As for the question why people would choose to pay in advance? From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card and didn't trust/didn't want to have a business relationship with PayPal, leaving Vorkasse as the only available payment option. Another point that has been brought up was the perception that the bank transfer would be more secure, as in "if they have my credit card info/PayPal account, they can just charge me at any time". The fact that bank account information also enables you to debit the account is curiously often forgotten. Is this a particular sensible position to take? Maybe not, but not everyone acts sensibly all the time.
- charsi 5y ago
  Lots of websites in India also offer payment via bank account, including amazon.in. The benefit from my POV was the same as you describe. I don't want random websites to have my credit card info and I don't want to deal with paypal. Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info. But the merchant just redirects to your bank as part of the payment flow. The bank knows how much money the merchant wants and you authorize it for that one transaction. Bank redirects back to the merchant who confirms the payment was successful. They can't make any further charges at a later date.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info Tell that to the people behind the "Sofortüberweisung" [ roughly: "Immediate bank transfer"] scheme - run by Sofort GmbH, now part of Klarna. I've seen this offered several times but never (dared to) try it personally, but by all accounts* it works something like this: At the merchant's checkout page you are offered choice of payment methods, Sofortüberweisung is on the list, you select it, then you end up on a third-party site(!) where you provide the login details to your bank account(!!) including PIN and/or one-time TAN(!!!). The third party site checks your balance, then executes a transfer to the merchant for the total of your cart, then confirms the transaction to the merchant. When I first read about how this works, I assumed I'd understood it wrong. From a security PoV, doesn't this make one's skin crawl? * sorry, pun intended ;)
    - charsi 5y ago
      Yep this flow is ripe for phishing. But I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak. With bank payments I just have to be careful to check I am actually at the bank website when entering the login info. Makes me feel more in control. I guess people in the west were already used to giving out their card info over the phone to make purchases so wasn't a big deal when online sites started doing it. In India credit cards were still not wide spread (still aren't) in the early 2000s.
      - logifail 5y ago
        > I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak Even if you know that your card provider will refund you if the card leaks? In the last decade I've twice had a credit card cloned, and twice I've been pleasantly surprised how quickly the card provider a) detected the issue, b) blocked the old card and re-issued a new card, and c) refunded the fraudent transactions. Based on that, I'd trust my credit card provider far more than my bank(s).
        5y ago
- logifail 5y ago
  > From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card [..] [It's a while since I lived and worked in Germany] are there many people who have a current/checking/Giro account but where this isn't a standard payment card linked to their account which is also a Visa or Mastercard compatible card?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Cu3PO42 5y ago
    Your standard checking account will (almost) always come with a girocard, which is a national debit card scheme. It can be used to pay in stores, but not online. These cards are typically co-branded with either Maestro or V-Pay, so they can be used on the MC/Visa networks if you're outside of Germany. However, the latter functionality is also restricted to card present transactions. You just cannot use these cards to pay online.
    - logifail 5y ago
      > girocard [..] I'm sure you understand this better than I do (and I don't just mean because the language!) but aren't banks like Sparkasse offering any online payment functionality with Girocard ? eg: https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezahlverfahren/giropay.html https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezah... "Mit giropay können Sie sicher online bezahlen" (freely translated): "you can pay safely online with giropay"
      - Cu3PO42 5y ago
        Banks are offering online payment functionality with giropay and other solutions. This is, however, a fully separate product with a similar name. It was quite late to the market and isn't universally supported by online shops. It doesn't come with your girocard, is also not supported by all banks, and requires that the customer use online banking. I would venture that the intersection between people who prefer to wire the money in advance and people who do not use online banking is quite big. EDIT: The old iteration of giropay (I'm not yet familiar with the new one) was quite similar to Sofort (previously Sofortüberweisung) except not run by a third party, but by your bank. It executed a normal wire transfer and confirmed to the merchant that the transfer had been ordered. In that sense it has the exact same risks as normal "Vorkasse", but did not incur the day of delay for the transfer to go through.

Cu3PO42 5y ago

Another popular payment option is to pay by invoice. Obviously this means the merchant assumes (almost) all the risk. Hence this option is not available most of the time. As for the question why people would choose to pay in advance? From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card and didn't trust/didn't want to have a business relationship with PayPal, leaving Vorkasse as the only available payment option. Another point that has been brought up was the perception that the bank transfer would be more secure, as in "if they have my credit card info/PayPal account, they can just charge me at any time". The fact that bank account information also enables you to debit the account is curiously often forgotten. Is this a particular sensible position to take? Maybe not, but not everyone acts sensibly all the time.

charsi 5y ago
Lots of websites in India also offer payment via bank account, including amazon.in. The benefit from my POV was the same as you describe. I don't want random websites to have my credit card info and I don't want to deal with paypal. Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info. But the merchant just redirects to your bank as part of the payment flow. The bank knows how much money the merchant wants and you authorize it for that one transaction. Bank redirects back to the merchant who confirms the payment was successful. They can't make any further charges at a later date.
- logifail 5y ago
  > Paying by bank account doesn't mean handing over bank account info Tell that to the people behind the "Sofortüberweisung" [ roughly: "Immediate bank transfer"] scheme - run by Sofort GmbH, now part of Klarna. I've seen this offered several times but never (dared to) try it personally, but by all accounts* it works something like this: At the merchant's checkout page you are offered choice of payment methods, Sofortüberweisung is on the list, you select it, then you end up on a third-party site(!) where you provide the login details to your bank account(!!) including PIN and/or one-time TAN(!!!). The third party site checks your balance, then executes a transfer to the merchant for the total of your cart, then confirms the transaction to the merchant. When I first read about how this works, I assumed I'd understood it wrong. From a security PoV, doesn't this make one's skin crawl? * sorry, pun intended ;)
  - charsi 5y ago
    Yep this flow is ripe for phishing. But I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak. With bank payments I just have to be careful to check I am actually at the bank website when entering the login info. Makes me feel more in control. I guess people in the west were already used to giving out their card info over the phone to make purchases so wasn't a big deal when online sites started doing it. In India credit cards were still not wide spread (still aren't) in the early 2000s.
    - logifail 5y ago
      > I prefer it over just giving a card number that a merchant has the ability to store and eventually leak Even if you know that your card provider will refund you if the card leaks? In the last decade I've twice had a credit card cloned, and twice I've been pleasantly surprised how quickly the card provider a) detected the issue, b) blocked the old card and re-issued a new card, and c) refunded the fraudent transactions. Based on that, I'd trust my credit card provider far more than my bank(s).
      - 5y ago
logifail 5y ago
> From my experience it was because they didn't have a credit card [..] [It's a while since I lived and worked in Germany] are there many people who have a current/checking/Giro account but where this isn't a standard payment card linked to their account which is also a Visa or Mastercard compatible card?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Cu3PO42 5y ago
  Your standard checking account will (almost) always come with a girocard, which is a national debit card scheme. It can be used to pay in stores, but not online. These cards are typically co-branded with either Maestro or V-Pay, so they can be used on the MC/Visa networks if you're outside of Germany. However, the latter functionality is also restricted to card present transactions. You just cannot use these cards to pay online.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > girocard [..] I'm sure you understand this better than I do (and I don't just mean because the language!) but aren't banks like Sparkasse offering any online payment functionality with Girocard ? eg: https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezahlverfahren/giropay.html https://www.sparkasse.de/unsere-loesungen/privatkunden/bezah... "Mit giropay können Sie sicher online bezahlen" (freely translated): "you can pay safely online with giropay"
    - Cu3PO42 5y ago
      Banks are offering online payment functionality with giropay and other solutions. This is, however, a fully separate product with a similar name. It was quite late to the market and isn't universally supported by online shops. It doesn't come with your girocard, is also not supported by all banks, and requires that the customer use online banking. I would venture that the intersection between people who prefer to wire the money in advance and people who do not use online banking is quite big. EDIT: The old iteration of giropay (I'm not yet familiar with the new one) was quite similar to Sofort (previously Sofortüberweisung) except not run by a third party, but by your bank. It executed a normal wire transfer and confirmed to the merchant that the transfer had been ordered. In that sense it has the exact same risks as normal "Vorkasse", but did not incur the day of delay for the transfer to go through.