3 ms·

Even if I'm being super charitable, I'd suggest the reason that she remembered it and took it as fact is because it aligned with her anti-Semitic prejudices.

incrudible 5y ago
First, I'd suggest that we separate anti-zionism and anti-Israel sentiment from antisemitism, because many Jews even within Israel are anti-zionist and even anti-Israel. Then, we can acknowledge that holding strong convictions against the current Israeli government, the occupation of the West-Bank and the treatment of Gaza is essentialy mainstream among Jews worldwide. I would agree that the left has an obsession with this particular issue that is disproportionate, but if hatred of Jews is the motivation, where is the smoking gun?
- throw4455s 5y ago
  > First, I'd suggest that we separate anti-zionism and anti-Israel sentiment from antisemitism If you are thinking the progressives in the UK are making reasonable and legitimate criticism of the state of Israel and nothing more, then you're dangerously ignorant of what's going on at polite dinner-parties in middle-class London. The reality is that the former leader of the left-wing party in the UK is liking on Facebook murals like this: https://twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/977183210051338241 https://twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/977183210051338241 This is parody-tier anti-semitism.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    You're moving the goalpost from this particular actress, whose alleged "closet antisemitism" you are unable to prove. So let's examine this "piece of art": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_for_Humanity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_for_Humanity Indeed, if you were to conflate the depiction of Freemasonry/Illuminati and big noses with the "Jewish World Conspiracy", you might interpret this mural as "antisemitic": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theor... However, only two of the depicted figures are actually Jewish. As with Israel, you can make the same distinction between "antagonists that happen to be Jewish" and Jews in general. If you buy into "horseshoe theory", you may well assume that some leftists must be stashing copies of "The Protocols" somewhere, ready to distribute when the time is right. However, for now I still don't see the smoking gun.
    - throw4455s 5y ago
      These are obviously intended to be caractectures of stereotypical Jewish people with stereotypical anti-semetic libels. Even if you could argue for some reason the particular people were relevant and actually looked like this... christ why woudln't you stop yourself and say 'wait a minute this could be misconstrued as anti-semetic, maybe I should adjust it'? How many examples of anti-semitism in the British progressive left do you need? How many people sacked by their own party and described by their own party as anti-semetic before you think 'oh right maybe these people are anti-semetic'? https://news.sky.com/story/12-shocking-claims-of-abuse-in-leaked-labour-antisemitism-dossier-11879053 https://news.sky.com/story/12-shocking-claims-of-abuse-in-le... 'This is fine, nothing to see here', huh?
      - incrudible 5y ago
        > These are obviously intended to be caractectures of stereotypical Jewish people with stereotypical anti-semetic libels. If it was "obviously" intended to portray Jews, where is the "Star of David"? At best, you could argue that this is a dog-whistle to all these supposed closet antisemites among the left. > Even if you could argue for some reason the particular people were relevant and actually looked like this... I can argue that, because that is what is being portrayed here, according to the artist himself. > christ why woudln't you stop yourself and say 'wait a minute this could be misconstrued as anti-semetic, maybe I should adjust it'? Adjust how? Is there a guideline by the ADL on the proportion of Jewish noses for the purpose of caricature? By some standard, anything involving a Jew can be misconstrued as "antisemitic" one way or another. Unfortunately, if you want to portray "the masonic elite oppressing the masses", you can't get around the fact that this trope has been used by out-and-proud antisemites and ordinary anti-capitalists alike. > How many examples of anti-semitism in the British progressive left do you need? Let's start with "one". You have moved the goalpost repeatedly. First, this actress, now this artist. In either case, you failed to provide the smoking gun. Now we're moving on to allegations of harassment by low-level party-members. By that standard, you'll have trouble finding any political group that has a clean shirt. If I don't accept the conflation of Trumpism with anti-semitism or white nationalism, then I'm not going to accept the case you just made either. An allegation of antisemitism (or other -isms based on identity) is quite serious. It must be supported by solid evidence, not hearsay, not interpretation.

incrudible 5y ago

First, I'd suggest that we separate anti-zionism and anti-Israel sentiment from antisemitism, because many Jews even within Israel are anti-zionist and even anti-Israel. Then, we can acknowledge that holding strong convictions against the current Israeli government, the occupation of the West-Bank and the treatment of Gaza is essentialy mainstream among Jews worldwide. I would agree that the left has an obsession with this particular issue that is disproportionate, but if hatred of Jews is the motivation, where is the smoking gun?

throw4455s 5y ago
> First, I'd suggest that we separate anti-zionism and anti-Israel sentiment from antisemitism If you are thinking the progressives in the UK are making reasonable and legitimate criticism of the state of Israel and nothing more, then you're dangerously ignorant of what's going on at polite dinner-parties in middle-class London. The reality is that the former leader of the left-wing party in the UK is liking on Facebook murals like this: https://twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/977183210051338241 https://twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/977183210051338241 This is parody-tier anti-semitism.
- incrudible 5y ago
  You're moving the goalpost from this particular actress, whose alleged "closet antisemitism" you are unable to prove. So let's examine this "piece of art": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_for_Humanity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_for_Humanity Indeed, if you were to conflate the depiction of Freemasonry/Illuminati and big noses with the "Jewish World Conspiracy", you might interpret this mural as "antisemitic": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theor... However, only two of the depicted figures are actually Jewish. As with Israel, you can make the same distinction between "antagonists that happen to be Jewish" and Jews in general. If you buy into "horseshoe theory", you may well assume that some leftists must be stashing copies of "The Protocols" somewhere, ready to distribute when the time is right. However, for now I still don't see the smoking gun.
  - throw4455s 5y ago
    These are obviously intended to be caractectures of stereotypical Jewish people with stereotypical anti-semetic libels. Even if you could argue for some reason the particular people were relevant and actually looked like this... christ why woudln't you stop yourself and say 'wait a minute this could be misconstrued as anti-semetic, maybe I should adjust it'? How many examples of anti-semitism in the British progressive left do you need? How many people sacked by their own party and described by their own party as anti-semetic before you think 'oh right maybe these people are anti-semetic'? https://news.sky.com/story/12-shocking-claims-of-abuse-in-leaked-labour-antisemitism-dossier-11879053 https://news.sky.com/story/12-shocking-claims-of-abuse-in-le... 'This is fine, nothing to see here', huh?
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > These are obviously intended to be caractectures of stereotypical Jewish people with stereotypical anti-semetic libels. If it was "obviously" intended to portray Jews, where is the "Star of David"? At best, you could argue that this is a dog-whistle to all these supposed closet antisemites among the left. > Even if you could argue for some reason the particular people were relevant and actually looked like this... I can argue that, because that is what is being portrayed here, according to the artist himself. > christ why woudln't you stop yourself and say 'wait a minute this could be misconstrued as anti-semetic, maybe I should adjust it'? Adjust how? Is there a guideline by the ADL on the proportion of Jewish noses for the purpose of caricature? By some standard, anything involving a Jew can be misconstrued as "antisemitic" one way or another. Unfortunately, if you want to portray "the masonic elite oppressing the masses", you can't get around the fact that this trope has been used by out-and-proud antisemites and ordinary anti-capitalists alike. > How many examples of anti-semitism in the British progressive left do you need? Let's start with "one". You have moved the goalpost repeatedly. First, this actress, now this artist. In either case, you failed to provide the smoking gun. Now we're moving on to allegations of harassment by low-level party-members. By that standard, you'll have trouble finding any political group that has a clean shirt. If I don't accept the conflation of Trumpism with anti-semitism or white nationalism, then I'm not going to accept the case you just made either. An allegation of antisemitism (or other -isms based on identity) is quite serious. It must be supported by solid evidence, not hearsay, not interpretation.