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Always the same old advise. Sleep hygiene, exercise, caffeine. Anyone with chronic insomnia can tell you none of that really works. For me it's always been impo

Always the same old advise. Sleep hygiene, exercise, caffeine. Anyone with chronic insomnia can tell you none of that really works. For me it's always been impossible to fall into a regular day/night routine, it's actually whenever I try to force it I'm starting to rapidly feel worse. So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. It's fine and I feel good, the real problem though is the schedule the world runs on.

dsego 5y ago
I can't deny that electronic devices and screens at night make me stay awake longer. The same with coffee after 4-5pm.
- lanstin 5y ago
  My biggest stay up too late things are when my wife is out of town and I am lonely and start some tablet based entertainment thing, whether Twitter or Netflix or just Wikipedia. (Usually hacker news is somewhat self limiting as far as time goes.). Since COVID I drink so much caffeine but also I am working like 7 am to 7 8 or 9 every day but weekends and just exhausted. Error prone too. I have to force myself not to do changes later in the week; not because of not wanting a Saturday incident but because I can’t trust my own judgement as much.
Mayzie 5y ago
Perhaps you have delayed sleep phase syndrome[1] or an N24 disorder[2]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake...
- inigojonesguy 5y ago
  [1] fits exactly my behaviour, thanks for the link :) I don't experience it as a disorder, except when I'm faced with early morning nazis.
emerged 5y ago
Yea it’s really frustrating how everyone just assumes you are doing something basic wrong, as if you haven’t spent years on all the low hanging fruit. My body/brain simply will not allow me to sleep longer than 6.5 hours and that is often really pushing it. I have absolutely no signs of sleep deprivation. No daytime sleepiness. Every article loves to tell me how horrible it is for me, but there are no symptoms and nothing more I can do.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  This seems to be a prime case of being misled that anything under 8 hours is bad. If you have no issues, 6.5 hours is a perfect amount with similar health outcomes to 8 hours across meta-analyses and all the Pop sleep science telling you that you need more is just adding needless sleep anxiety to your life in this case.
- slothtrop 5y ago
  > nothing more I can do Notwithstanding everything else you said, you don't know that for a fact. Some unlikely interventions can have a massive impact. Even if you're content with your sleep it doesn't mean it can't be improved.
- anonuser123456 5y ago
  There is a genetic mutation that a small minority carry that allows them to sleep less (6.2 hrs average). You simply may be one of those people. Sleep duration is just a single metric; apnea, REM+NREM3 duration etc. all matter. You may be getting as much REM+NREM3 in 6.5 as someone gets in 8... and if you don't have apnea, you might get WAY more actual sleep than most people. I went through a period where I believed my body would only accommodate a certain amount of sleep. Once I stopped caring about sleep duration... that duration slowly increased to eventually revert to 'normal'. The key is to just _stop_caring_ about it. Do everything right, and let your body/mind handle the rest. It doesn't happen overnight.
  - swader999 5y ago
    How do you check for whether you have this mutation? Sequence your genome? Any recommendations?
unishark 5y ago
That sounds like me. Whenever doctors have asked me when I normally go to sleep, I don't have an answer. I'd say sleep hygiene is necessary but not sufficient. I'm guessing you are aware of the reddit forums for N24/DSPS,that are also pretty intolerant of sleep hygiene talk. But the part about getting up after 30 minutes or so to start over is definitely very helpful for me. For me, meditation also helps a lot, which I think suggests my main problem is anxiety/stress.
rapsey 5y ago
My insomnia was a result of a magnesium deficiency (also vitamin d)
- huachimingo 5y ago
  This can be true, last check with the doctor about the lungs revealed I had vitamin D deficiency. But I've been always sleepy, no matter what number of hours I sleep. I guess I have to praise the sun more often.
  - rapsey 5y ago
    Vitamin D hugely increased the quality of sleep I got. But interestingly not actually taking D3 supplements, using a vitamin D lamp got the job done.
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      Interesting, any skin cancer risk with that?
      - rapsey 5y ago
        The wavelength is chosen to minimize the risk. The lamp is used to treat skin problems and the amount of time for that use is quite a bit longer than just to get some vitamin d from it.
- joncrane 5y ago
  Does timing of the dose matter? Meaning do you take the supplements right before bed, in the morning, etc?
  - rapsey 5y ago
    Yes it does. Before bed.
jillesvangurp 5y ago
There are a few things that actually make things worse that lead people to get stuck in a negative spiral. Basically alcohol makes you drowsy and helps you fall asleep. But you wake up dehydrated, not very well rested, and in some cases hungover. People drink coffee to fix that, which makes it harder to sleep. Stress levels feed into that as well as it leads to drinking and other ways for people to relieve stress. Social drinking & high stress environments are also a thing. I get sucked into that a lot and it's fun but definitely very bad for my productivity. But understanding the causes helps. There's a bunch of things I simply don't do: 1) late night working. I can't get any sleep after that. My brain being hyperactive before bed time kills my productivity the next day. So it's a net loss. I'd rather wake up early than work late. 2) caffeine takes a long time to leave your body. I don't drink coffee after noon. Or tea. Or anything containing it. I also limit my intake to max 2-3 cups per day. I avoid the stuff entirely on weekends and try to not get too dependent on it. A nice side effect is that when I do drink coffee, it really works. 3) I don't work on the weekend. I need my weekends to reset my brain. Sleep is part of that. Not thinking about work for 2 days a week is part of that. Context switches are great for getting work out of your short term memory. I don't want to feel guilty about not working; so it's a rule I very break. It can wait and if it can't, it will have to anyway. 4) I don't set alarm clocks. I stopped doing this years ago and I wake up when I need to. It's uncanny; the rare times I do set an alarm clock because I need to be up extremely early, I actually wake up just before it goes off. Mostly on normal days I wake up around the time I would have set my alarm anyway; or slightly before that. In the rare case I don't, I apparently needed some extra sleep and its fine. Finishing your natural sleep cycle is more important than getting out of bed 20 minutes too early. I never miss meetings or get late to work (well working from home like everyone these days).
- huachimingo 5y ago
  Tell that to a University student.
- lanstin 5y ago
  The alarm clock thing is surely a sign of an in control life but I think is also a sign of aging. It is a huge change for me and a bit bothersome at times, tho I have found ways to enjoy the early morning with no pressing tasks.
Tenoke 5y ago
For what is worth, I have chronic sleep issues (not quite insomnia) and exercise helps, caffeine makes little difference and attempting to follow sleep hygiene worsens my quality of life too much.
codingdave 5y ago
> Anyone with chronic insomnia can tell you none of that really works. True, but that is a self-fulfilling definition. For most people, that advice will work. For the minority for whom it does not work, they have chronic insomnia. It does not invalidate the advice, it just means that some people are out of the norm and need something else. That being said, I agree with you. We all would be healthier if we'd just sleep when tired, eat when hungry. But that isn't how our society rolls.
- slver 5y ago
  Synchronization is important between parts of a composite system, this is why we have evolved to synchronically sleep, we even yawn together.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  I found something that works for me. One of the things that prevents adults from sleeping is worrying about life problems. Getting your brain to shut up about problems that you cannot fix at night is the problem. My trick is to listen (not watch) to old television shows ...all night. I selected a few hundred hours of old television that'd I'd seen many times before, got a pair of very comfortable ear buds to sleep with, and I just listen to the old TV shows for 8 hours straight. It works amazingly. Now I sleep through the night, every night, despite having even worse life problems than when I started. One interesting side effect is that I don't dream the same at all. If I dream at all - it's actually about the show that I'm listening to. It doesn't seem to have any negative impact though.
  - swader999 5y ago
    I'm going to try this. Maybe start with Bob Ross.
  - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
    I’m using Hearts of Space or the chillout mixshows from truehouse.net for the same effect. Of the latter, I prefer the shows I’ve been listening to for over a decade.
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Ozzie_osman 5y ago
Just as one data point here, cutting caffeine after noon fixed my insomnia back in college. So it works for at least some people. I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone. So I'm one of the lucky ones. The other thing that seems to have helped me has been allowing natural light into my bedroom. I used to black out my windows and sleep in, then wake up disoriented since my bedroom was pitch black. Now, the sunrise wakes me up on the morning and I'm guessing that helps with circadian rhythm. It's still not perfect. If I have the slightest bit of anxiety I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and in general if I wake up at night I have trouble falling asleep again. But that's a far cry from my college insomnia.
- swader999 5y ago
  Cutting after mid day is wise. Every liver clears caffeine differently. There's a threshold where your liver won't actively process caffeine if you don't drink enough. For me, I sleep better on two cups in the morning but just one will keep me up all night.
  - travisjungroth 5y ago
    Do you have a source on this I can look into? Caffeine really keeps me up. I thought small amounts would do that less, but it sounds like that might make it worse.
    - swader999 5y ago
      It was just a conversation with my doctor that gave me this insight. Then I played around with my 'dose'. For me at least, the dose effects happen right away, if I get it right I sleep that night. Maybe check this when sleep isn't critical. Try adding half a cup more each day and note the your ability to fall asleep. Of course I will have trouble if I have too much coffee.
      - travisjungroth 5y ago
        Thanks!
slothtrop 5y ago
The article is weak, but I don't think it reflected "the same old advice" exactly. It does touch upon circadian rhythm issues briefly, which from the sounds of it is what you're experiencing. Most likely there are antagonists at play delaying your onset. Often either sleeping in late / excess time in bed, or anxiety, or blue light emitting electronics before bed.
bradstewart 5y ago
> So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. I did this for years. Felt great for a while, then starting having noticeable impacts on my ability to focus, my mood, and my physical health. The same old advice took close to 6 months to really start helping me. It was an absolute grind to stick to a wake + bedtime routine. The discipline it takes is absolutely insane (weekends were the hardest). I stopped and started over and over and over again, but eventually stuck to it. Low/medium dose ambien once or twice a week was the the thing that really got me into the habit/routine. Medication is not a long term fix (especially this stuff), but this was enough to get me through the fitful nights for a few months--it stopped me from getting out bed and breaking the routine. Anecdote, so as usual, ymmv.
ta1234567890 5y ago
> the real problem though is the schedule the world runs on. Yes! People have different circadian rhythms. Also teenagers tend to naturally be night owls. But the world doesn’t care much. Even having schedule flexibility at work, if you have kids that you need to take to school, then you have to follow their schedule.
- 411111111111111 5y ago
  Most seditary people turn into "night owls" if they don't pay attention. Your phrasing makes it sound like people can't help themselves, but thats just wrong. Sleeping habits are actually an issue of discipline unless you're suffering from an actual medical condition... Which are extremely rare Either start working out/do cardio or reduce your sleeping time until you're able to go to sleep at the time you wish. some things are actually controllable if the person in question cared enough to actually learn about themselves.
  - ta1234567890 5y ago
    You might want to read this: http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variations/individual-variation-genetics http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variatio... It is scientifically recognized that people have different circadian rhythms (thus sleep cycles). And here’s some research about teenage delayed circadian rhythm: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/ You know, sometimes people are not snowflakes that require bullying or discipline to do things “the right way”. Btw, do you have any references for your claim that most sedentary people will become night owls if they don’t pay attention? Or is it just your own personal perspective?
    - deleted 5y ago
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    - 411111111111111 5y ago
blacksqr 5y ago
Up until my early 30's, I could never fall asleep before 1-2AM. If I could sleep until 10AM I felt great, any earlier and I felt miserable all day. This put me seriously out of sync with the expectations of the corporate work world. In the 1990's medicinal herbs became popular and easy to get, including sleep aids. I discovered rather by accident that if I took melatonin or valerian right before going to bed, then popped a caffeine pill immediately upon waking up, I felt normal and productive during the day, even with only sixish hours of sleep. I started doing that routinely during the work week. Changed my life. My sleep rhythms finally adjusted after about ten years of doing this, so I can now go to bed at 11pm-12 and wake up like a normal person in the morning without the aid of the herbs or the caffeine.
- deleted 5y ago
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brian_cunnie 5y ago
Agreed: Sometimes the thing causing insomnia falls outside the realm of that simple advice (sleep hygiene, exercise, caffeine). Two weeks after being put on Lipitor I began to suffer chronic insomnia for the first time in my life: I had good sleep hygiene (almost perfect), consistent exercise, and minimal caffeine (only in the morning, only before 9am). The problem lay in my body chemistry: insomnia was not an uncommon side effect of Lipitor. The fix? My doctor swapped out Lipitor for a different statin.
tinyhouse 5y ago
> So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. For me actually following sleep experts advice helped. Particularly, CBT-I. The idea is very simple. Two important sleep factors are what your brain is used to and how tired you are. If your brain is used to wake up in the middle of the night, you can possibly change it by making yourself very tired. You start by picking a consistent sleep window that works for you. Let's assume you get 7 hours of sleep but need to spend 9 hours in bed for that. You pick a 7 hours window (e.g., 11p - 6am) and you put an alarm clock and get up regardless if you're tired or not. In the beginning you're going to wake up in the middle of the night and be very tired in the morning, but ideally after some time you'll be tired enough and sleep through the night. This sleep restriction practice can be dangerous of course, and it's not recommended unless you can get at least 5 hours of sleep each night. Over time you can adjust your sleep window as needed. The key is to stick to your sleep routine, following all sleep hygiene tips, and maybe most importantly waking up every day at the same time even if you went to bed later than your usual bed time. That's why I still use an alarm clock even though I don't need to and some research suggest it's better to wake up naturally. So far it's been working for me, might not work for others. Another tip I have is meditation. Other already mentioned they listen to stuff like audio books etc. When I cannot fall a sleep I would usually listen to some sleep meditation with a sleep eye mask. It works better for me than what most sleep experts recommend - leaving bed and reading book or something like that.
toomanybeersies 5y ago
One of the biggest boons of working from home has been that I have a lot more flexibility in my working hours. We have an informal policy of not scheduling meetings before 11 AM, so even when I don't get to sleep until 3 AM (which is common), I can still get ~8 hours of sleep.
zachm0 5y ago
Lol! You say none of the advice from the article really works, and then immediately follow that up by saying what worked for you was... advice that was in the article? Excerpt from the linked article: Don’t force yourself into a consistent bedtime. A regular bedtime is great if you’re sleeping well. But if you can’t fall asleep, trying to force it will only make things worse.
graeme 5y ago
Actually, I had chronic insomnia and sleep hygiene worked for me! The biggest biggest things were a totally dark bedroom, only using lamps in the evening, and switching back to halogen/incandescents for the lamps. And little screen use/activity in the hour before bed, along with having a routine. I also have had a lot of success with podcasts to fall asleep. Before this I’d often be awake until 1-3 am. It was terrible. It sucks it didn’t work for you, but am chiming in to say for others that if you really try sleep hygiene and tinker with it, it may well work.
msrenee 5y ago
Yep. Narcoleptic here. Sort of the opposite problem where I sleep 9 hours and wake up exhausted and continue to struggle until I fall asleep again. I mention that I'm tired and I get the whole maybe you're sleeping too much, don't look at screens before bed, try melatonin, maybe some caffeine will wake you up, get some exercise. I try not to take it out on anyone because they mean well, but if it's on the first page of Google when you look up exhausted after 8 hours of sleep, I promise you, I've tried it. I did all the lifestyle changes. Then I got diagnosed. The drugs work. Nothing else besides low carb eating did before that.

dsego 5y ago

I can't deny that electronic devices and screens at night make me stay awake longer. The same with coffee after 4-5pm.

lanstin 5y ago
My biggest stay up too late things are when my wife is out of town and I am lonely and start some tablet based entertainment thing, whether Twitter or Netflix or just Wikipedia. (Usually hacker news is somewhat self limiting as far as time goes.). Since COVID I drink so much caffeine but also I am working like 7 am to 7 8 or 9 every day but weekends and just exhausted. Error prone too. I have to force myself not to do changes later in the week; not because of not wanting a Saturday incident but because I can’t trust my own judgement as much.

Mayzie 5y ago

Perhaps you have delayed sleep phase syndrome[1] or an N24 disorder[2]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake...

inigojonesguy 5y ago
[1] fits exactly my behaviour, thanks for the link :) I don't experience it as a disorder, except when I'm faced with early morning nazis.

emerged 5y ago

Yea it’s really frustrating how everyone just assumes you are doing something basic wrong, as if you haven’t spent years on all the low hanging fruit. My body/brain simply will not allow me to sleep longer than 6.5 hours and that is often really pushing it. I have absolutely no signs of sleep deprivation. No daytime sleepiness. Every article loves to tell me how horrible it is for me, but there are no symptoms and nothing more I can do.

Tenoke 5y ago
This seems to be a prime case of being misled that anything under 8 hours is bad. If you have no issues, 6.5 hours is a perfect amount with similar health outcomes to 8 hours across meta-analyses and all the Pop sleep science telling you that you need more is just adding needless sleep anxiety to your life in this case.
slothtrop 5y ago
> nothing more I can do Notwithstanding everything else you said, you don't know that for a fact. Some unlikely interventions can have a massive impact. Even if you're content with your sleep it doesn't mean it can't be improved.
anonuser123456 5y ago
There is a genetic mutation that a small minority carry that allows them to sleep less (6.2 hrs average). You simply may be one of those people. Sleep duration is just a single metric; apnea, REM+NREM3 duration etc. all matter. You may be getting as much REM+NREM3 in 6.5 as someone gets in 8... and if you don't have apnea, you might get WAY more actual sleep than most people. I went through a period where I believed my body would only accommodate a certain amount of sleep. Once I stopped caring about sleep duration... that duration slowly increased to eventually revert to 'normal'. The key is to just _stop_caring_ about it. Do everything right, and let your body/mind handle the rest. It doesn't happen overnight.
- swader999 5y ago
  How do you check for whether you have this mutation? Sequence your genome? Any recommendations?

unishark 5y ago

That sounds like me. Whenever doctors have asked me when I normally go to sleep, I don't have an answer. I'd say sleep hygiene is necessary but not sufficient. I'm guessing you are aware of the reddit forums for N24/DSPS,that are also pretty intolerant of sleep hygiene talk. But the part about getting up after 30 minutes or so to start over is definitely very helpful for me. For me, meditation also helps a lot, which I think suggests my main problem is anxiety/stress.

rapsey 5y ago

My insomnia was a result of a magnesium deficiency (also vitamin d)

huachimingo 5y ago
This can be true, last check with the doctor about the lungs revealed I had vitamin D deficiency. But I've been always sleepy, no matter what number of hours I sleep. I guess I have to praise the sun more often.
- rapsey 5y ago
  Vitamin D hugely increased the quality of sleep I got. But interestingly not actually taking D3 supplements, using a vitamin D lamp got the job done.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Interesting, any skin cancer risk with that?
    - rapsey 5y ago
      The wavelength is chosen to minimize the risk. The lamp is used to treat skin problems and the amount of time for that use is quite a bit longer than just to get some vitamin d from it.
joncrane 5y ago
Does timing of the dose matter? Meaning do you take the supplements right before bed, in the morning, etc?
- rapsey 5y ago
  Yes it does. Before bed.

jillesvangurp 5y ago

There are a few things that actually make things worse that lead people to get stuck in a negative spiral. Basically alcohol makes you drowsy and helps you fall asleep. But you wake up dehydrated, not very well rested, and in some cases hungover. People drink coffee to fix that, which makes it harder to sleep. Stress levels feed into that as well as it leads to drinking and other ways for people to relieve stress. Social drinking & high stress environments are also a thing. I get sucked into that a lot and it's fun but definitely very bad for my productivity. But understanding the causes helps. There's a bunch of things I simply don't do: 1) late night working. I can't get any sleep after that. My brain being hyperactive before bed time kills my productivity the next day. So it's a net loss. I'd rather wake up early than work late. 2) caffeine takes a long time to leave your body. I don't drink coffee after noon. Or tea. Or anything containing it. I also limit my intake to max 2-3 cups per day. I avoid the stuff entirely on weekends and try to not get too dependent on it. A nice side effect is that when I do drink coffee, it really works. 3) I don't work on the weekend. I need my weekends to reset my brain. Sleep is part of that. Not thinking about work for 2 days a week is part of that. Context switches are great for getting work out of your short term memory. I don't want to feel guilty about not working; so it's a rule I very break. It can wait and if it can't, it will have to anyway. 4) I don't set alarm clocks. I stopped doing this years ago and I wake up when I need to. It's uncanny; the rare times I do set an alarm clock because I need to be up extremely early, I actually wake up just before it goes off. Mostly on normal days I wake up around the time I would have set my alarm anyway; or slightly before that. In the rare case I don't, I apparently needed some extra sleep and its fine. Finishing your natural sleep cycle is more important than getting out of bed 20 minutes too early. I never miss meetings or get late to work (well working from home like everyone these days).

huachimingo 5y ago
Tell that to a University student.
lanstin 5y ago
The alarm clock thing is surely a sign of an in control life but I think is also a sign of aging. It is a huge change for me and a bit bothersome at times, tho I have found ways to enjoy the early morning with no pressing tasks.

Tenoke 5y ago

For what is worth, I have chronic sleep issues (not quite insomnia) and exercise helps, caffeine makes little difference and attempting to follow sleep hygiene worsens my quality of life too much.

codingdave 5y ago

> Anyone with chronic insomnia can tell you none of that really works. True, but that is a self-fulfilling definition. For most people, that advice will work. For the minority for whom it does not work, they have chronic insomnia. It does not invalidate the advice, it just means that some people are out of the norm and need something else. That being said, I agree with you. We all would be healthier if we'd just sleep when tired, eat when hungry. But that isn't how our society rolls.

slver 5y ago
Synchronization is important between parts of a composite system, this is why we have evolved to synchronically sleep, we even yawn together.
koheripbal 5y ago
I found something that works for me. One of the things that prevents adults from sleeping is worrying about life problems. Getting your brain to shut up about problems that you cannot fix at night is the problem. My trick is to listen (not watch) to old television shows ...all night. I selected a few hundred hours of old television that'd I'd seen many times before, got a pair of very comfortable ear buds to sleep with, and I just listen to the old TV shows for 8 hours straight. It works amazingly. Now I sleep through the night, every night, despite having even worse life problems than when I started. One interesting side effect is that I don't dream the same at all. If I dream at all - it's actually about the show that I'm listening to. It doesn't seem to have any negative impact though.
- swader999 5y ago
  I'm going to try this. Maybe start with Bob Ross.
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  I’m using Hearts of Space or the chillout mixshows from truehouse.net for the same effect. Of the latter, I prefer the shows I’ve been listening to for over a decade.
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Ozzie_osman 5y ago

Just as one data point here, cutting caffeine after noon fixed my insomnia back in college. So it works for at least some people. I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone. So I'm one of the lucky ones. The other thing that seems to have helped me has been allowing natural light into my bedroom. I used to black out my windows and sleep in, then wake up disoriented since my bedroom was pitch black. Now, the sunrise wakes me up on the morning and I'm guessing that helps with circadian rhythm. It's still not perfect. If I have the slightest bit of anxiety I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and in general if I wake up at night I have trouble falling asleep again. But that's a far cry from my college insomnia.

swader999 5y ago
Cutting after mid day is wise. Every liver clears caffeine differently. There's a threshold where your liver won't actively process caffeine if you don't drink enough. For me, I sleep better on two cups in the morning but just one will keep me up all night.
- travisjungroth 5y ago
  Do you have a source on this I can look into? Caffeine really keeps me up. I thought small amounts would do that less, but it sounds like that might make it worse.
  - swader999 5y ago
    It was just a conversation with my doctor that gave me this insight. Then I played around with my 'dose'. For me at least, the dose effects happen right away, if I get it right I sleep that night. Maybe check this when sleep isn't critical. Try adding half a cup more each day and note the your ability to fall asleep. Of course I will have trouble if I have too much coffee.
    - travisjungroth 5y ago
      Thanks!

slothtrop 5y ago

The article is weak, but I don't think it reflected "the same old advice" exactly. It does touch upon circadian rhythm issues briefly, which from the sounds of it is what you're experiencing. Most likely there are antagonists at play delaying your onset. Often either sleeping in late / excess time in bed, or anxiety, or blue light emitting electronics before bed.

bradstewart 5y ago

> So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. I did this for years. Felt great for a while, then starting having noticeable impacts on my ability to focus, my mood, and my physical health. The same old advice took close to 6 months to really start helping me. It was an absolute grind to stick to a wake + bedtime routine. The discipline it takes is absolutely insane (weekends were the hardest). I stopped and started over and over and over again, but eventually stuck to it. Low/medium dose ambien once or twice a week was the the thing that really got me into the habit/routine. Medication is not a long term fix (especially this stuff), but this was enough to get me through the fitful nights for a few months--it stopped me from getting out bed and breaking the routine. Anecdote, so as usual, ymmv.

ta1234567890 5y ago

> the real problem though is the schedule the world runs on. Yes! People have different circadian rhythms. Also teenagers tend to naturally be night owls. But the world doesn’t care much. Even having schedule flexibility at work, if you have kids that you need to take to school, then you have to follow their schedule.

411111111111111 5y ago
Most seditary people turn into "night owls" if they don't pay attention. Your phrasing makes it sound like people can't help themselves, but thats just wrong. Sleeping habits are actually an issue of discipline unless you're suffering from an actual medical condition... Which are extremely rare Either start working out/do cardio or reduce your sleeping time until you're able to go to sleep at the time you wish. some things are actually controllable if the person in question cared enough to actually learn about themselves.
- ta1234567890 5y ago
  You might want to read this: http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variations/individual-variation-genetics http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variatio... It is scientifically recognized that people have different circadian rhythms (thus sleep cycles). And here’s some research about teenage delayed circadian rhythm: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/ You know, sometimes people are not snowflakes that require bullying or discipline to do things “the right way”. Btw, do you have any references for your claim that most sedentary people will become night owls if they don’t pay attention? Or is it just your own personal perspective?
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  - 411111111111111 5y ago

blacksqr 5y ago

Up until my early 30's, I could never fall asleep before 1-2AM. If I could sleep until 10AM I felt great, any earlier and I felt miserable all day. This put me seriously out of sync with the expectations of the corporate work world. In the 1990's medicinal herbs became popular and easy to get, including sleep aids. I discovered rather by accident that if I took melatonin or valerian right before going to bed, then popped a caffeine pill immediately upon waking up, I felt normal and productive during the day, even with only sixish hours of sleep. I started doing that routinely during the work week. Changed my life. My sleep rhythms finally adjusted after about ten years of doing this, so I can now go to bed at 11pm-12 and wake up like a normal person in the morning without the aid of the herbs or the caffeine.

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brian_cunnie 5y ago

Agreed: Sometimes the thing causing insomnia falls outside the realm of that simple advice (sleep hygiene, exercise, caffeine). Two weeks after being put on Lipitor I began to suffer chronic insomnia for the first time in my life: I had good sleep hygiene (almost perfect), consistent exercise, and minimal caffeine (only in the morning, only before 9am). The problem lay in my body chemistry: insomnia was not an uncommon side effect of Lipitor. The fix? My doctor swapped out Lipitor for a different statin.

tinyhouse 5y ago

> So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. For me actually following sleep experts advice helped. Particularly, CBT-I. The idea is very simple. Two important sleep factors are what your brain is used to and how tired you are. If your brain is used to wake up in the middle of the night, you can possibly change it by making yourself very tired. You start by picking a consistent sleep window that works for you. Let's assume you get 7 hours of sleep but need to spend 9 hours in bed for that. You pick a 7 hours window (e.g., 11p - 6am) and you put an alarm clock and get up regardless if you're tired or not. In the beginning you're going to wake up in the middle of the night and be very tired in the morning, but ideally after some time you'll be tired enough and sleep through the night. This sleep restriction practice can be dangerous of course, and it's not recommended unless you can get at least 5 hours of sleep each night. Over time you can adjust your sleep window as needed. The key is to stick to your sleep routine, following all sleep hygiene tips, and maybe most importantly waking up every day at the same time even if you went to bed later than your usual bed time. That's why I still use an alarm clock even though I don't need to and some research suggest it's better to wake up naturally. So far it's been working for me, might not work for others. Another tip I have is meditation. Other already mentioned they listen to stuff like audio books etc. When I cannot fall a sleep I would usually listen to some sleep meditation with a sleep eye mask. It works better for me than what most sleep experts recommend - leaving bed and reading book or something like that.

toomanybeersies 5y ago

One of the biggest boons of working from home has been that I have a lot more flexibility in my working hours. We have an informal policy of not scheduling meetings before 11 AM, so even when I don't get to sleep until 3 AM (which is common), I can still get ~8 hours of sleep.

zachm0 5y ago

Lol! You say none of the advice from the article really works, and then immediately follow that up by saying what worked for you was... advice that was in the article? Excerpt from the linked article: Don’t force yourself into a consistent bedtime. A regular bedtime is great if you’re sleeping well. But if you can’t fall asleep, trying to force it will only make things worse.

graeme 5y ago

Actually, I had chronic insomnia and sleep hygiene worked for me! The biggest biggest things were a totally dark bedroom, only using lamps in the evening, and switching back to halogen/incandescents for the lamps. And little screen use/activity in the hour before bed, along with having a routine. I also have had a lot of success with podcasts to fall asleep. Before this I’d often be awake until 1-3 am. It was terrible. It sucks it didn’t work for you, but am chiming in to say for others that if you really try sleep hygiene and tinker with it, it may well work.

msrenee 5y ago

Yep. Narcoleptic here. Sort of the opposite problem where I sleep 9 hours and wake up exhausted and continue to struggle until I fall asleep again. I mention that I'm tired and I get the whole maybe you're sleeping too much, don't look at screens before bed, try melatonin, maybe some caffeine will wake you up, get some exercise. I try not to take it out on anyone because they mean well, but if it's on the first page of Google when you look up exhausted after 8 hours of sleep, I promise you, I've tried it. I did all the lifestyle changes. Then I got diagnosed. The drugs work. Nothing else besides low carb eating did before that.