6 ms·

How Parking Destroys Cities

63 points by necromanc 5y ago

adav 5y ago
Should be: How Parking Destroys American Cities
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  No, this is my exact sentiment in Lisbon, Portugal - Europe. A city going on 1000 years. Our parking requirements for new construction and our addiction to free curb parking everywhere have destroyed mobility. There are unnecessary jams at all times of the day thanks to idiotic parking. I drive daily and have nothing against cars. I hope that small semi-self-driving electric cars will eventually replace our dying public transit. There are many great things about the car. But I hate parking with a passion. In Lisbon we could easily double or triple the speed and amount of traffic flow without any investment by getting rid of a few thousand spots of street parking. Road space should be for people to go about their business, not for storing inert objects. My hope against hope is that will one day we abolish street parking and invest in world-class automated below-ground parking. Let 1000 underground auto lifts bloom. Done properly it might even jump-start a new globally competitive manufacturing industry, something we haven't had since the 80s.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > In Lisbon we could easily double or triple the speed and amount of traffic flow without any investment by getting rid of a few thousand spots of street parking. Agreed, but surely the best arrangement in a dense, traditional city centre is not to have high speed traffic at all except on a few large thoroughfares, and to reserve most other streets and alleys to pedestrian use.
    - zemvpferreira 5y ago
      I agree with you but high speed is very relative. I'd be happy to have a 30-50 km/hr limit across the city and no city streets/avenue with more than two lanes of traffic, certainly not advocating for more than that. What I'd love to have is a continuous flow of traffic at low speeds instead of stop-and-go for an hour to get 10 kms across town.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > I hope that small semi-self-driving electric cars will eventually replace our dying public transit Why?? That can't work with the terrain and current buildings in Lisbon, there simply isn't enough space for a car per person. And I can't imagine a livable city with so much space and money wasted for parking and roads. ( Due to induced demand ) Improving public transit is a much better option, especially considering Lisbon has some decent infrastructure already ( the tram and metro networks seemed pretty decent from my trip there just at the start of the pandemic).
    - zemvpferreira 5y ago
      Sorry if I sound blunt but you're clearly not a resident of the Lisbon metro if you think public transit is serviceable. Maybe some 20% of commuters would have to trade 45 minutes in a car for 2 hours minimum in public transit. Lisbon =! the city centre. And our public transit is impossible to improve as seen in the last 50 years - we just can't make public works work. Maybe it's a sign of old age but I've grown tired of idealistic solutions to persistent problems. Would I prefer a phenomenal public transit system over cars? Absolutely, I hate driving. But it is what it is and pining for Nirvana will not help us whatsoever. Better work with the momentum we have.
Shaddox 5y ago
I'm jealous of parking abundant American cities. In this part of the pond, your choices are between walking, taking a face-planted-against-the-window bus or train, or take your car and spin around for 30 minutes at your destination trying to find somewhere to leave your car. Neither of these are very good. I'd rather one problem be solved than have a choice between 3 awful compromises.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  Taxi not an option?
  - ldoughty 5y ago
    If you're going to work, that might be 15-30% of your income to pay for the trip
    - hobofan 5y ago
      If you are going to work as a freelancer and bill commute as working time (as you should, to disincentivize useless meetings), you might even make money while being driven.
  - Cockbrand 5y ago
    Or cycling?
  - eafkuor 5y ago
    Last time I checked taxis are pretty expensive. Not everyone wants or can spend 10 or 20 euros every time they need to go somewhere.
    - jonvk 5y ago
      Free parking is also quite expensive, although it's hard to see. It increases the costs of private properties when it's part of the property, and public parking increases government expenditures. It also consumes lots of otherwise very valuable space. That's without factoring in the increased costs on social structures from the extra drivers on the road when there is more parking space.
soco 5y ago
I hear this discussion also on this side of the pond and I just don't get it: why not reviving public transport? I can't see how even more car-friendly policies - self-driven cars or not - can make the roads more available... I'm in Switzerland and short or long distance, public transport gets you in comparable times with driving. Maybe not for some godforsaken places where you need to switch three buses, but 90% of the trips you're within 20% of the direct drive time (and parking time is never counted).
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  Here in Portugal the louder voices speak for public transit - greener, fairer, etc etc. You know the usual arguments. Unfortunately massive public works are by far our biggest source of grifting. It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Maybe Switzerland doesn't have this problem, but I'm all for solutions that take funds away from our politician's hands. And the car is great in that respect, as long as you don't advocate to increase road capacity at a massive cost.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic. The best system for any given atea is going to depend on density and local demand.
    - zemvpferreira 5y ago
      It can, but it won't be in Lisbon, unless we completely reform the public sector first. If that's our hope we might as well get used to the current situation.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      > Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic Yeah, but their downsides (noise, vibrations, visibility) make them impractical for new projects in most old cities.
Simulacra 5y ago
I have a dream in which cities will offer free parking on the outskirts in garages, and free light rail/subway transit into the city, with zoning laws that emphasize a walkable city. I can dream, but I think it will require separating people from their cars and getting them comfortable with that.
userulluipeste 5y ago
This is madness. Despite the pandemic we all went through and the need to avoid unnecessary human contact and proximity, despite the fact that the highest risk of infection has been demonstrably in walkable cities like New York, the old policy of pushing for measures that would force people to travel together, regardless of their preference or safety, hasn't changed. I like to walk, and pre-pandemic I took public transport a lot, despite having access to a car, which I used to drive only rarely. That all changed with the pandemic. Thankfully, I haven't got infected, and I'm convinced that the shelter provided by car's cabin was an important factor. Do not force people into having only exposure laden movement options.
- distances 5y ago
  Urban planning is much longer scale than this pandemic. In my opinion there should be no free parking in inner cities, and no requirements for parking spaces for property developers. Parking should be possible only in market priced parking garages. Parking options could still be built into apartment buildings, again at prices reflecting the cost of land/building costs. It should be markedly cheaper to buy an apartment without parking option. Suburban areas are different of course, but cities seem to only turn really alive when cars are reduced and population density exceeds 10,000 per square kilometer.
- supertrope 5y ago
  San Francisco has had less COVID-19 fatalities than drug overdoses. New York got heavily infected because up until Mid February the governor considered it just the flu. On top of the feds failing to respond (botched test creation, minimal contact tracing, resistance to travel restrictions). The MTA forbid workers from wearing masks to avoid causing a panic.

63 points by necromanc 5y ago

adav 5y ago

Should be: How Parking Destroys American Cities

zemvpferreira 5y ago
No, this is my exact sentiment in Lisbon, Portugal - Europe. A city going on 1000 years. Our parking requirements for new construction and our addiction to free curb parking everywhere have destroyed mobility. There are unnecessary jams at all times of the day thanks to idiotic parking. I drive daily and have nothing against cars. I hope that small semi-self-driving electric cars will eventually replace our dying public transit. There are many great things about the car. But I hate parking with a passion. In Lisbon we could easily double or triple the speed and amount of traffic flow without any investment by getting rid of a few thousand spots of street parking. Road space should be for people to go about their business, not for storing inert objects. My hope against hope is that will one day we abolish street parking and invest in world-class automated below-ground parking. Let 1000 underground auto lifts bloom. Done properly it might even jump-start a new globally competitive manufacturing industry, something we haven't had since the 80s.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > In Lisbon we could easily double or triple the speed and amount of traffic flow without any investment by getting rid of a few thousand spots of street parking. Agreed, but surely the best arrangement in a dense, traditional city centre is not to have high speed traffic at all except on a few large thoroughfares, and to reserve most other streets and alleys to pedestrian use.
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    I agree with you but high speed is very relative. I'd be happy to have a 30-50 km/hr limit across the city and no city streets/avenue with more than two lanes of traffic, certainly not advocating for more than that. What I'd love to have is a continuous flow of traffic at low speeds instead of stop-and-go for an hour to get 10 kms across town.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > I hope that small semi-self-driving electric cars will eventually replace our dying public transit Why?? That can't work with the terrain and current buildings in Lisbon, there simply isn't enough space for a car per person. And I can't imagine a livable city with so much space and money wasted for parking and roads. ( Due to induced demand ) Improving public transit is a much better option, especially considering Lisbon has some decent infrastructure already ( the tram and metro networks seemed pretty decent from my trip there just at the start of the pandemic).
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    Sorry if I sound blunt but you're clearly not a resident of the Lisbon metro if you think public transit is serviceable. Maybe some 20% of commuters would have to trade 45 minutes in a car for 2 hours minimum in public transit. Lisbon =! the city centre. And our public transit is impossible to improve as seen in the last 50 years - we just can't make public works work. Maybe it's a sign of old age but I've grown tired of idealistic solutions to persistent problems. Would I prefer a phenomenal public transit system over cars? Absolutely, I hate driving. But it is what it is and pining for Nirvana will not help us whatsoever. Better work with the momentum we have.

Shaddox 5y ago

I'm jealous of parking abundant American cities. In this part of the pond, your choices are between walking, taking a face-planted-against-the-window bus or train, or take your car and spin around for 30 minutes at your destination trying to find somewhere to leave your car. Neither of these are very good. I'd rather one problem be solved than have a choice between 3 awful compromises.

HPsquared 5y ago
Taxi not an option?
- ldoughty 5y ago
  If you're going to work, that might be 15-30% of your income to pay for the trip
  - hobofan 5y ago
    If you are going to work as a freelancer and bill commute as working time (as you should, to disincentivize useless meetings), you might even make money while being driven.
- Cockbrand 5y ago
  Or cycling?
- eafkuor 5y ago
  Last time I checked taxis are pretty expensive. Not everyone wants or can spend 10 or 20 euros every time they need to go somewhere.
  - jonvk 5y ago
    Free parking is also quite expensive, although it's hard to see. It increases the costs of private properties when it's part of the property, and public parking increases government expenditures. It also consumes lots of otherwise very valuable space. That's without factoring in the increased costs on social structures from the extra drivers on the road when there is more parking space.

soco 5y ago

I hear this discussion also on this side of the pond and I just don't get it: why not reviving public transport? I can't see how even more car-friendly policies - self-driven cars or not - can make the roads more available... I'm in Switzerland and short or long distance, public transport gets you in comparable times with driving. Maybe not for some godforsaken places where you need to switch three buses, but 90% of the trips you're within 20% of the direct drive time (and parking time is never counted).

zemvpferreira 5y ago
Here in Portugal the louder voices speak for public transit - greener, fairer, etc etc. You know the usual arguments. Unfortunately massive public works are by far our biggest source of grifting. It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Maybe Switzerland doesn't have this problem, but I'm all for solutions that take funds away from our politician's hands. And the car is great in that respect, as long as you don't advocate to increase road capacity at a massive cost.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > It takes an average of 20 years and $120M/mile (60M €/km) to open a new metro station. Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic. The best system for any given atea is going to depend on density and local demand.
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    It can, but it won't be in Lisbon, unless we completely reform the public sector first. If that's our hope we might as well get used to the current situation.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Light rail transit or streetcars can be a lot cheaper than that, while still avoiding quite a bit of car traffic Yeah, but their downsides (noise, vibrations, visibility) make them impractical for new projects in most old cities.

Simulacra 5y ago

I have a dream in which cities will offer free parking on the outskirts in garages, and free light rail/subway transit into the city, with zoning laws that emphasize a walkable city. I can dream, but I think it will require separating people from their cars and getting them comfortable with that.

userulluipeste 5y ago

This is madness. Despite the pandemic we all went through and the need to avoid unnecessary human contact and proximity, despite the fact that the highest risk of infection has been demonstrably in walkable cities like New York, the old policy of pushing for measures that would force people to travel together, regardless of their preference or safety, hasn't changed. I like to walk, and pre-pandemic I took public transport a lot, despite having access to a car, which I used to drive only rarely. That all changed with the pandemic. Thankfully, I haven't got infected, and I'm convinced that the shelter provided by car's cabin was an important factor. Do not force people into having only exposure laden movement options.

distances 5y ago
Urban planning is much longer scale than this pandemic. In my opinion there should be no free parking in inner cities, and no requirements for parking spaces for property developers. Parking should be possible only in market priced parking garages. Parking options could still be built into apartment buildings, again at prices reflecting the cost of land/building costs. It should be markedly cheaper to buy an apartment without parking option. Suburban areas are different of course, but cities seem to only turn really alive when cars are reduced and population density exceeds 10,000 per square kilometer.
supertrope 5y ago
San Francisco has had less COVID-19 fatalities than drug overdoses. New York got heavily infected because up until Mid February the governor considered it just the flu. On top of the feds failing to respond (botched test creation, minimal contact tracing, resistance to travel restrictions). The MTA forbid workers from wearing masks to avoid causing a panic.