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As a consultant, I've been helping startups with their hiring process, and I've noticed, at this point, even very junior engineers, just starting, are expecting

As a consultant, I've been helping startups with their hiring process, and I've noticed, at this point, even very junior engineers, just starting, are expecting flexibility of schedule, and many are looking for work from home options. (I am not saying this is good or bad, I'm only noting it.) At some point in the past I think there was a bit more of an attitude that one had to "pay one's dues", at least for a few years, but now there is more of an assumption of work from home options being available. And even though Amazon is, typically, hiring a more experienced engineer, and paying more, than the startups I've consulted with, this is certainly the right move for them. It's good for a company to offer flexibility and to be very clear about exactly what is being offered.

riknox 5y ago
I've started a new job remotely this year with quite a few junior engineers in the team, and I'm definitely finding it's much harder to mentor and make sure that they're taking the right paths while solving a problem than it was in the office. Flexibility is undoubtedly a good thing, however like you I think there is an element of paying your dues that is perhaps missing in the current environment.
- femiagbabiaka 5y ago
  What does paying your dues mean and how does it make you more effective in your opinion?
  - riknox 5y ago
    I think a lot of the skills you learn around how you interact with people in a professional setting, developing a sense of when to ask someone for help vs. work through a problem yourself, and how to develop software professionally. I've found that we have a lot more work taken down a wrong path because it's not as easy to check in on someone remotely without it coming across as micromanagement of more junior developers. I appreciate that a fair portion of that "blame" lays with the more senior members, but I've at least found that some things that would easily be resolved face to face, or with the kind of coffee break chat you get in person, have festered on longer than they necessarily should have.
    - femiagbabiaka 5y ago
      all great points! this is why I'm not the hugest fan of "remote-optional" workplaces. remote-native companies tend to develop methods to achieve what you've mentioned without being in an office. remote-optional.. not as much.
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field. Generally there’s nothing in-person provides them that proper management in general does not. You’d both be looking at code anyway, on a screen, so pair programming is the same no matter the distance. And there’s also the fact that experienced hires tend to not want to always baby juniors anyway. They need to learn how to read documentation and spend time on writing code. That’s mostly it for the first few years.
  - orthoxerox 5y ago
    > Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field. If your company's chat rooms are great, the onboarding might go well. Otherwise there's a big difference between noticing your boss/buddy is looking at their phone or having another kind of break and sneaking in a question or vice versa, noticing your junior dev's frustrated face, and looking at the green signal next to their name and wondering if it's a good time for a call.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    Not everyone is a loner, and the people who aren't loners tend to get promoted more. The most amazing programmer in my team, who is a loner, is 5-10years behind on the promotion ladder (against his desire).
  - oblio 5y ago
    > Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field. You might be from a different era :-) IT is a mass employer these days, there is no "not cut out of the field". Companies need software. They'll be bad engineers, but they'll be engineers regardless.
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      This is a fascinating point that I had not considered. Thank you! I think you're right.
danielrpa 5y ago
I believe the WFH shift is inevitable for the information industry and whoever tries to resist it will be in the wrong side of history. Covid, for all of its horrors, did bring this positive change which should in the long term help alleviate traffic congestion, reduce the climate impact of commuting and revert the decay of small and medium cities. In the future, expecting information workers to work in the office every day will feel like requiring them to wear a suit feels today. There will be certain niches that will be stuck in the old ways, and other obvious exceptions where physical interaction with equipment is necessary, but otherwise this change is here to stay. Its implementation will be gradual after the initial batch of forward-thinking companies adopt it, but unstoppable nonetheless. After a point, companies will greatly prefer flexible workplaces due to reduced hiring costs and overhead, especially as the technology for remote work improves and more people become proficient at working from outside the office. We should all be prepared for the change. Being effective working from home is a workplace skill like any other; at one time, for instance, information workers had to learn to transition to the typewriter and later to computers. Those who refuse to learn this new skill will eventually be left behind or, at best, have their employment options substantially restricted.
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  I'm not so sure: now that I'm 40 and have 3 kids I really love WFH. It saves a commute and lets me balance my life/work effectively. However 21/22 year old me would have hated this! Working from an office was so much fun back then. Plus you'd meet girls at lunch and stuff. Fantastic time. Lots of work, lots of learning the soft skills and lots of laughing around and enjoying myself. I hope that 24/7 WFH doesn't become a thing, but that we get a mix. Flexibility from both sides, whenever possible.
  - Loughla 5y ago
    >lots of learning the soft skills This is actually something that didn't cross my mind through this whole thing, and I don't know why. I love WFH, and wish my employer would extend the option, rather than take a hardline stance against it (old administration doesn't understand productivity tools so we all suffer). That being said, if I was just starting out in the working world, my prospects absolutely would've been different as time went on. Working in an office full time 100% helped me realize that soft skills are as, if not more important than technical skill. As a director of a very diverse department now, I actually look for soft skills more than anything. Technical aspects can be learned via the on-boarding process. Soft skills are so much harder to hone, though. Especially if you're entirely remote.
pjc50 5y ago
> bit more of an attitude that one had to "pay one's dues" I think people started asking questions like "to whom am I paying and do I get a receipt" and "what do I get in return for these dues". If there's zero loyalty from the employer side and everyone's just an instantly replaceable gig worker, the concept vanishes. > good for a company to offer flexibility and to be very clear about exactly what is being offered. 100% this.

riknox 5y ago

I've started a new job remotely this year with quite a few junior engineers in the team, and I'm definitely finding it's much harder to mentor and make sure that they're taking the right paths while solving a problem than it was in the office. Flexibility is undoubtedly a good thing, however like you I think there is an element of paying your dues that is perhaps missing in the current environment.

femiagbabiaka 5y ago
What does paying your dues mean and how does it make you more effective in your opinion?
- riknox 5y ago
  I think a lot of the skills you learn around how you interact with people in a professional setting, developing a sense of when to ask someone for help vs. work through a problem yourself, and how to develop software professionally. I've found that we have a lot more work taken down a wrong path because it's not as easy to check in on someone remotely without it coming across as micromanagement of more junior developers. I appreciate that a fair portion of that "blame" lays with the more senior members, but I've at least found that some things that would easily be resolved face to face, or with the kind of coffee break chat you get in person, have festered on longer than they necessarily should have.
  - femiagbabiaka 5y ago
    all great points! this is why I'm not the hugest fan of "remote-optional" workplaces. remote-native companies tend to develop methods to achieve what you've mentioned without being in an office. remote-optional.. not as much.
wait_a_minute 5y ago
Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field. Generally there’s nothing in-person provides them that proper management in general does not. You’d both be looking at code anyway, on a screen, so pair programming is the same no matter the distance. And there’s also the fact that experienced hires tend to not want to always baby juniors anyway. They need to learn how to read documentation and spend time on writing code. That’s mostly it for the first few years.
- orthoxerox 5y ago
  > Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field. If your company's chat rooms are great, the onboarding might go well. Otherwise there's a big difference between noticing your boss/buddy is looking at their phone or having another kind of break and sneaking in a question or vice versa, noticing your junior dev's frustrated face, and looking at the green signal next to their name and wondering if it's a good time for a call.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Not everyone is a loner, and the people who aren't loners tend to get promoted more. The most amazing programmer in my team, who is a loner, is 5-10years behind on the promotion ladder (against his desire).
- oblio 5y ago
  > Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field. You might be from a different era :-) IT is a mass employer these days, there is no "not cut out of the field". Companies need software. They'll be bad engineers, but they'll be engineers regardless.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    This is a fascinating point that I had not considered. Thank you! I think you're right.

danielrpa 5y ago

I believe the WFH shift is inevitable for the information industry and whoever tries to resist it will be in the wrong side of history. Covid, for all of its horrors, did bring this positive change which should in the long term help alleviate traffic congestion, reduce the climate impact of commuting and revert the decay of small and medium cities. In the future, expecting information workers to work in the office every day will feel like requiring them to wear a suit feels today. There will be certain niches that will be stuck in the old ways, and other obvious exceptions where physical interaction with equipment is necessary, but otherwise this change is here to stay. Its implementation will be gradual after the initial batch of forward-thinking companies adopt it, but unstoppable nonetheless. After a point, companies will greatly prefer flexible workplaces due to reduced hiring costs and overhead, especially as the technology for remote work improves and more people become proficient at working from outside the office. We should all be prepared for the change. Being effective working from home is a workplace skill like any other; at one time, for instance, information workers had to learn to transition to the typewriter and later to computers. Those who refuse to learn this new skill will eventually be left behind or, at best, have their employment options substantially restricted.

radicalbyte 5y ago
I'm not so sure: now that I'm 40 and have 3 kids I really love WFH. It saves a commute and lets me balance my life/work effectively. However 21/22 year old me would have hated this! Working from an office was so much fun back then. Plus you'd meet girls at lunch and stuff. Fantastic time. Lots of work, lots of learning the soft skills and lots of laughing around and enjoying myself. I hope that 24/7 WFH doesn't become a thing, but that we get a mix. Flexibility from both sides, whenever possible.
- Loughla 5y ago
  >lots of learning the soft skills This is actually something that didn't cross my mind through this whole thing, and I don't know why. I love WFH, and wish my employer would extend the option, rather than take a hardline stance against it (old administration doesn't understand productivity tools so we all suffer). That being said, if I was just starting out in the working world, my prospects absolutely would've been different as time went on. Working in an office full time 100% helped me realize that soft skills are as, if not more important than technical skill. As a director of a very diverse department now, I actually look for soft skills more than anything. Technical aspects can be learned via the on-boarding process. Soft skills are so much harder to hone, though. Especially if you're entirely remote.

pjc50 5y ago

> bit more of an attitude that one had to "pay one's dues" I think people started asking questions like "to whom am I paying and do I get a receipt" and "what do I get in return for these dues". If there's zero loyalty from the employer side and everyone's just an instantly replaceable gig worker, the concept vanishes. > good for a company to offer flexibility and to be very clear about exactly what is being offered. 100% this.