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The Queen’s Latin or Who Were the Romans? Part I: Beginnings and Legends
- TechnoTimeStop 5y agotOTALy=TEchRELATED
- uniqueid 5y agoMany people who visit HN, including myself, don't come here primarily for tech news.
- prajwalshetty 5y ago+1
- diegolo 5y ago+1 this is so cool
- digikazi 5y agoExactly! I have enough of tech at work - in my down time I don't want to read about more tech, I want to read stuff that's engaging, interesting, unusual and thought-provoking. In this respect HN doesn't disappoint. I also come here for the discussions: they too are frequently interesting and more often than not I learn something new. Long may it last.
- dang 5y agoYou seem to be under a mistaken impression of what HN is for. If you read the first paragraph of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, it should correct that. We want stories on the widest range of curiosity-gratifying topics, well beyond just tech and startups. Historical material is particularly welcome here! https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20historical%20welcome&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- orangepanda 5y ago> The ‘newsreader’ from HBO’s Rome, played by English actor Ian McNeice. The Romans would have called him a praeco; it was an occupation which was looked down upon. How else would I know which one is the true roman bread for true romans?
- ggambetta 5y agoOh man, I loved that guy. Now I might have to re-watch Rome... again. THIRTEENTH!
- spaced-out 5y agoFascinating article. It's pretty ironic that Roman aristocrats are so often depicted by white, British actors, in no small part because that fits Americans' mental image of what an aristocrat is.
- jmeister 5y agoWell, there is nothing stopping other cultures from depicting Roman aristocrats in their own image. Indian gods and historical figures are usually depicted as fair, in their own, contemporary art.
- pastage 5y agoExcept missing it, I notice that you are not disagreeing with the point. Lots of contemporary indian culture features fair skinned people in the main role. For the same general reason.
- wdb 5y agoI always thought fair skin in parts of the world meant that you weren't working class (e.g. worked outside in the sun)
- zozbot234 5y agoMany Indians today believe in the Aryan invasion theory, which views Indian culture and religion as having originated from people living in modern-day Central/Southern Asia and Iran, and only later being adopted by native people in India. This theory is often connected with a view that fairer-skinned people represent "true" Indian culture, not the natives who were generally relegated to lower social status. The caste system itself is not native to India but is instead found widely among PIE cultures, including the Aryans who are said to have invaded India.
- cabalamat 5y ago> Many Indians today believe in the Aryan invasion theory That's because it's almost certainly true! it's why Indians speak Indo-European languages, and why the same Y-chromosome haplogroup (R1a) is common among (for example) Indian Brahmins and Norwegians. > This theory is often connected with a view that fairer-skinned people represent "true" Indian culture The Hindu religion in its most ancient form (see e.g. the Rig Veda) derives from the Proto-Indo-European religion, parts of which have been reconstructed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology (Obviously modern India culture comes from a lot of other sources too!) > including the Aryans who are said to have invaded India. You phrase it that was as if to imply that it didn't happen. But I think the evidence that it did: linguistic, genetic, archeological, is very strong.
- yodelshady 5y agoDeveraux's work is always a treat. Incidentally, so is hearing Latin spoken with an Italian accent - so that it actually sounds spoken, rather than rehearsed. Unfortunately if I learnt it myself I'd be required to join the Civil Service. > as well as some very salty Roman writing which I will not bowdlerize in the slightest a little later in the series Heh, heh, heh. You're going to want to follow this one.
- MiguelX413 5y agoAs long as they use Classical Pronunciation and not Ecclesiastical
- throw0101a 5y agoTo learn about the differences, see video on Luke Ranieri's Polymathy channel: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeqTuPZv9as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeqTuPZv9as Also: > How should Latin be pronounced? The debate has raged for more than a hundred years, but as the dust has settled two poles stand astride each other: the traditional Italian pronunciation, called Ecclesiastical, and the Restored Classical pronunciation. Is one more correct than the other? Is one more appropriate than the other in certain contexts? * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPlJMWQci8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPlJMWQci8
- dariosalvi78 5y agoSo I've just discovered the pronunciation I learned in school is basically medieval. Interesting to see how the classic one is actually even closer to Italian in some ways.
- Koshkin 5y ago"In some ways," perhaps... At least, the Italians do not insist that Latin 2000 years ago sounded like Italian does today.
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- biztos 5y agoIt's ironic in this context that one of the most prominent non-Roman characters in HBO’s Rome, the enslaved Eirene, who speaks English with a thick accent, was played by an actress from… Rome: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1493547/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1493547/ https://hbo-rome.fandom.com/wiki/Eirene https://hbo-rome.fandom.com/wiki/Eirene
- greenwich26 5y agoThe effort to paint ancient Rome as some sort of model 21st century, "diverse multicultural non-white non-European melting point" is always pretty funny. And Cleopatra was black, right?? Of course, it all falls apart the minute you look at the ancient sources. Subflavus. P.S. I have been to Italy many times and I can report, for the benefit of all Americans, that *Italians are white*. Period.
- vt85 5y agoIt’s really becoming ridiculous at this point. Romans were white even more than current Italians. There were more than historically accurate “diversity” in HBO Rome, but Roman aristocracy at this point in time was strictly preserving blood lines not only prohibiting racial diversity, but even mixing with low class. It’s one of the first Roman laws - noble cannot marry common. Leftist propaganda is conquering new heights…
- zozbot234 5y ago> It’s one of the first Roman laws - noble cannot marry common. This is more of a historical curiosity than anything else, since the right to intermarriage across the Roman ordines was restored in 445 BCE (i.e. still quite early in the Republican period).
- uniqueid 5y agoI really don't want to know the sources of the claims in this comment. I am skeptical to put it mildly. If one uses a search engine to look up surviving murals and mosaics from Ancient Rome the faces that pop up bolster the claims in the essay, not this comment. Edit: Come to think of it, also there were also a few Roman Emperors from North Africa!
- vt85 5y agoBut if you read some actual sources, or historical books, they back up common sense truth. Frescoes are not evidence, not to mention that their paints even can change. I hope people don’t judge our civilization by our art, because it would mean we have met aliens and they all spoke English.
- tovej 5y agoIt's great seeing Livius getting some attention, and on hackernews of all places. Ab Urbe Condita is really much more of an epic tale than a proper history book by modern standards, even though, as Deveraux notes, the later bits are probably more or less accurate in the big picture (e.g. the 2nd punic war). Livius mostly wanted to create a sort of national romantic work with Ab Urbe Condita. He was a republican who wanted to look back to the glory days of the republic, even as Rome became an empire. With his stories, he wanted to create an ideal of Rome to set an example to other Romans. Livius preaches to Romans about Roman justice, cleverness, and honesty. Livius has his own agenda, he does not represent every Roman. Luckily we have archaelogy and the historical method to help us. I feel like ancient history is trending (at least on the internet). There's hope for more TV shows with more diverse casting. Great piece, wonderfully researched, I'm excited for the next article in the series.
- animal531 5y agoI am working on a small Roman themed indie game at the moment, so things like this are a great resource for inspiration and more knowledge, thanks!
- throw0101a 5y agoIf anyone wants to learn more about Latin, Luke Ranieri's Polymathy channel has a lot of good stuff: * https://www.youtube.com/c/PolymathyLuke/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/PolymathyLuke/videos He recent 'reviewed' the Latin in Civ5 and Civ6, as well as the "Romans go home" scene of Life of Brian. He does other languages as well as science-y stuff as well.
- Hayarotle 5y agoOther good sources include Schola Latina (From Italy, content from lots of different Latin speakers)
- Ericson2314 5y agoI've long found it funny that this blog titled with "pedantry" has so many disclaimers. Pedantry is usually about poking all the tiny wholes in the opposing argument not your own!
- Anthony-G 5y agoAs a self-described pedant – albeit, one who’s trying to be less of a perfectionist – I’d say it manifests itself as a 19:1 ratio of being critical of my own writing over anyone else’s. When communicating textually, I try my best to read my emails and other text messages to look for mistakes, ambiguities and other sources of confusion before pressing “Send”. It’s only on rare occasions that I’d bother correcting someone else’s mistakes or misconceptions and I’d be more inclined to do so if the misconception is popular and leaving it to stand would reinforce the spread of the misconception.
- jkingsbery 5y ago> Many students are more than a little surprised to find that the actual contents of Latin literature are often rather less elevated than they might have expected Our college Latin teacher was trying to get us to translate Catallus more faithfully, especially after one student gave a particularly polite translation. It was a moment in my career as a student I'll never forget - not only using pretty graphic language in class, and having a professor respond "Right, good."