4 ms·

I agree 100% and it's quite scary. We've moved past the "information age" where facts and science and raw data are used to drive decisions, and we're in some k

by grecy 5y ago

I agree 100% and it's quite scary. We've moved past the "information age" where facts and science and raw data are used to drive decisions, and we're in some kind of "selfish wants" age. I don't know if it's a problem with democracy though - we've known for a long time now if you let regular folk vote on it a huge number would vote for absolutely zero tax and society would fall apart because of it, but they'd go down chanting how free they are because they're not paying tax. I wonder if it's a lack of education about critical thinking, or maybe just a few decades of being told we can have whatever we want, making (most/some) people very entitled and self-centred. I'm locked in a quarantine hotel for 14 days right now (entering Australia) and I'm live vlogging it across social media. I'm getting a TON of comments from people who are outraged that this is a violation of my rights, etc. etc. It doesn't occur to them that I had to agree to this quarantine long before I could even book a plane ticket, and I personally think it's a very good protective measure and I'm happy about it. Their outrage about what is happening to me is apparently more relevant and important than my own thoughts about what is happening to me. People seem to think their own personal rights are more important than the rights of society as a whole.

effie 5y ago
Those are quite some assumptions you make there. When did we ever live in age where "facts and science and raw data are used to drive decisions" ? I don't know of such age. Both West and East are driven by ideologies and powerful people whims for a long time. > zero tax and society would fall apart because of it How do you know this? Society is a very general concept, why would it fall apart just because of different economics? Instead of taxes, the government could just print more money, or we could completely change the government so it works on donations instead of taxes. It is hard to predict what would happen, society falling apart is one of them, but not the only one. Structural change of society does not mean it has to fall apart.
- grecy 5y ago
  > When did we ever live in age where "facts and science and raw data are used to drive decisions" ? IMHO that was the case from something like the 70s to the 00s, but it could be rose colored glasses. > How do you know this? Without taxes there are no Police. No schools, no publicly funded roads, water, electricity or anything like that (street sweeping, snow clearing, etc.). That's just the very beginning. No EPA. Nobody making or enforcing any kind of order. Nobody even making sure the food for sale is some kind of food. I think it's safe to say without taxes society as we know it would fall apart very rapidly. Sure, would there be LaMOE's (Last Man On Earth) defending their Idaho ranch with all their guns... but in the broader sense everything we know today would stop.
  - effie 5y ago
    That is a very catastrophic view of the world. Taxes keeping us from destruction... I don't know, maybe they just keep us from evolving the society. Indians were living fine before they ever heard of taxes. They had different organization, but they did have one. The same can happen in the future. A set of local communities with local order based on merit and seniority, without a bureaucracy somewhere far away trying to direct people's lives.
    - grecy 5y ago
      I don't disagree with you - and I lived in remote Africa for three years, so I've seen a thing or two - but I also think it's very important to remember that without taxes our lives would be immensely different. As I mentioned most of the stuff we have now simply wouldn't exist. Would we do other things? sure. But don't imagine we can have this level of luxury and ease.
landemva 5y ago
Individual people have rights, which come from God (higher power). Groups and "society" are not able to have rights, as "groups" are an artificial construct.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beprogrammed 5y ago
  But God is an artificial construct.
- grecy 5y ago
  Ignoring your comment about a ficticious guy, I don't disagree that individuals have rights. But if those individuals want to live among other people, they must obey by the rules and behave in a manner that is acceptable for all, and doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Although "god" created us without any clothes (if you believe in that kind of thing), you can't walk down the street right now naked. You can't take food from the store because you're hungry (or even pick it off a tree a-la Eve) and you can't even just sleep wherever you want. Individual rights are not the be all and end all when you live in a society. If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to go live extraordinarily far away in the wilderness and never have anything to do with society. I lived in the Yukon. I know quite a few people doing that. It's a perfectly valid option. They hunt their own food, grow their own vegetables and go into town at most once every six months. They despise it.
- ilyaeck 5y ago
  Individuals have rights that come from God? Is that a grant written somewhere? The notion of rights is completely abstract, a relatively recent concept in our particular society. It doesn't exist in nature. Individual humans and other animals have their bodies and minds, desires, ideas and skills, and that's more or less it. The rest are abstractions a la mode that come and go. Now, I sure like to have my rights, but I have no illusions about them being god-given. If the society needs to dispense with that notion in order to survive, it will.
premium-komodo 5y ago
> People seem to think their own personal rights are more important than the rights of society as a whole. To me this reads like an epitaph. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Maybe you really would be happier living in a place run like China is.

by grecy 5y ago

effie 5y ago

Those are quite some assumptions you make there. When did we ever live in age where "facts and science and raw data are used to drive decisions" ? I don't know of such age. Both West and East are driven by ideologies and powerful people whims for a long time. > zero tax and society would fall apart because of it How do you know this? Society is a very general concept, why would it fall apart just because of different economics? Instead of taxes, the government could just print more money, or we could completely change the government so it works on donations instead of taxes. It is hard to predict what would happen, society falling apart is one of them, but not the only one. Structural change of society does not mean it has to fall apart.

grecy 5y ago
> When did we ever live in age where "facts and science and raw data are used to drive decisions" ? IMHO that was the case from something like the 70s to the 00s, but it could be rose colored glasses. > How do you know this? Without taxes there are no Police. No schools, no publicly funded roads, water, electricity or anything like that (street sweeping, snow clearing, etc.). That's just the very beginning. No EPA. Nobody making or enforcing any kind of order. Nobody even making sure the food for sale is some kind of food. I think it's safe to say without taxes society as we know it would fall apart very rapidly. Sure, would there be LaMOE's (Last Man On Earth) defending their Idaho ranch with all their guns... but in the broader sense everything we know today would stop.
- effie 5y ago
  That is a very catastrophic view of the world. Taxes keeping us from destruction... I don't know, maybe they just keep us from evolving the society. Indians were living fine before they ever heard of taxes. They had different organization, but they did have one. The same can happen in the future. A set of local communities with local order based on merit and seniority, without a bureaucracy somewhere far away trying to direct people's lives.
  - grecy 5y ago
    I don't disagree with you - and I lived in remote Africa for three years, so I've seen a thing or two - but I also think it's very important to remember that without taxes our lives would be immensely different. As I mentioned most of the stuff we have now simply wouldn't exist. Would we do other things? sure. But don't imagine we can have this level of luxury and ease.

landemva 5y ago

Individual people have rights, which come from God (higher power). Groups and "society" are not able to have rights, as "groups" are an artificial construct.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
beprogrammed 5y ago
But God is an artificial construct.
grecy 5y ago
Ignoring your comment about a ficticious guy, I don't disagree that individuals have rights. But if those individuals want to live among other people, they must obey by the rules and behave in a manner that is acceptable for all, and doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Although "god" created us without any clothes (if you believe in that kind of thing), you can't walk down the street right now naked. You can't take food from the store because you're hungry (or even pick it off a tree a-la Eve) and you can't even just sleep wherever you want. Individual rights are not the be all and end all when you live in a society. If you don't like it, you're perfectly free to go live extraordinarily far away in the wilderness and never have anything to do with society. I lived in the Yukon. I know quite a few people doing that. It's a perfectly valid option. They hunt their own food, grow their own vegetables and go into town at most once every six months. They despise it.
ilyaeck 5y ago
Individuals have rights that come from God? Is that a grant written somewhere? The notion of rights is completely abstract, a relatively recent concept in our particular society. It doesn't exist in nature. Individual humans and other animals have their bodies and minds, desires, ideas and skills, and that's more or less it. The rest are abstractions a la mode that come and go. Now, I sure like to have my rights, but I have no illusions about them being god-given. If the society needs to dispense with that notion in order to survive, it will.

premium-komodo 5y ago

> People seem to think their own personal rights are more important than the rights of society as a whole. To me this reads like an epitaph. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Maybe you really would be happier living in a place run like China is.