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> If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? Why would they? And more specifically, why would they

> If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? Why would they? And more specifically, why would they cause lung issues? Because that's the main problem with COVID. The virus like to bind to cells that have a specific receptors, with the vast majority contained in lung tissue. You would expect to see major damage near the injection site if your cytokine storm theory had weight, but not much else. If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. Except it's a localized, self-limited amount, as mRNA cannot replicate. Viruses can.

jfkgktjjj 5y ago
> If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. You're forgetting about the lipids the vaccine mRNA is put into. One big reason it took so long to create mRNA vaccines was finding a suitable lipid mix. They need to have a specific property, they need to be electrically charged in a certain way, and pretty much all lipids with that property are extremely toxic. The equivalent lipids in the virus don't have this problem because they come from the human cell membrane and they use the spike protein to fuse. Since the vaccine doesn't have a spike protein, it needs that special charge property to be able to spill it's mRNA. The question now is, if it took sooo long to find those lipids, just what the safety margin on them is? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8 https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-li...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sergiosgc 5y ago
  Just for reference, for those that won't read the articles you link to: The conclusion of the article is that these lipids are safe, with a recommendation for further study. The article is from 2016, no ill effects were found since then
- kaba0 5y ago
  While medicine doesn’t work like this, but what is the proposed mechanism from any sort of side effect from the minuscule amount of lipids, probably largely derived from already known substances?
- zaarn 5y ago
  Consider how little is actually injected into the human body (sub milligram dose mixed with saline solution), even if it was toxic, I doubt it would have any effect at this scale. And btw, there is no difference between lipids we can make and lipids that our cells make. It's the same chemical composition.
losvedir 5y ago
> Except it's a localized, self-limited amount, as mRNA cannot replicate. Well, hence my question about cytokine storm, since by definition that's an out of control feedback loop prompted by other cytokines and not the underlying virus any more. My question was about whether it's possible that just the spike protein could conceivably have induced that effect. Good point about the localization of it. Though, I do feel like I read somewhere you see the Spike proteins mostly around the shoulder and in the liver, so it does travel through the blood somewhat. Also, I was under the misunderstanding that cytokines were part of the adaptive immune system, and hence produced – I think? – in the bone marrow. If that were true, it wouldn't matter so much where the antigens were, since the B/T-Cells (getting confused on which is which) are produced elsewhere and have to make their way there anyway. And if that's the case, they'd be visiting the lungs. And, being adaptive, I thought it was something about the shape of covid and hence the antibodies that kicked off the storm in the lungs, and not necessarily the quantity or prevalence of the antigen in the lungs. But, turns out it's part of the innate immune system, and seems like cytokines are mostly produced near the infection itself.

jfkgktjjj 5y ago

> If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. You're forgetting about the lipids the vaccine mRNA is put into. One big reason it took so long to create mRNA vaccines was finding a suitable lipid mix. They need to have a specific property, they need to be electrically charged in a certain way, and pretty much all lipids with that property are extremely toxic. The equivalent lipids in the virus don't have this problem because they come from the human cell membrane and they use the spike protein to fuse. Since the vaccine doesn't have a spike protein, it needs that special charge property to be able to spill it's mRNA. The question now is, if it took sooo long to find those lipids, just what the safety margin on them is? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8 https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-li...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sergiosgc 5y ago
Just for reference, for those that won't read the articles you link to: The conclusion of the article is that these lipids are safe, with a recommendation for further study. The article is from 2016, no ill effects were found since then
kaba0 5y ago
While medicine doesn’t work like this, but what is the proposed mechanism from any sort of side effect from the minuscule amount of lipids, probably largely derived from already known substances?
zaarn 5y ago
Consider how little is actually injected into the human body (sub milligram dose mixed with saline solution), even if it was toxic, I doubt it would have any effect at this scale. And btw, there is no difference between lipids we can make and lipids that our cells make. It's the same chemical composition.

losvedir 5y ago

> Except it's a localized, self-limited amount, as mRNA cannot replicate. Well, hence my question about cytokine storm, since by definition that's an out of control feedback loop prompted by other cytokines and not the underlying virus any more. My question was about whether it's possible that just the spike protein could conceivably have induced that effect. Good point about the localization of it. Though, I do feel like I read somewhere you see the Spike proteins mostly around the shoulder and in the liver, so it does travel through the blood somewhat. Also, I was under the misunderstanding that cytokines were part of the adaptive immune system, and hence produced – I think? – in the bone marrow. If that were true, it wouldn't matter so much where the antigens were, since the B/T-Cells (getting confused on which is which) are produced elsewhere and have to make their way there anyway. And if that's the case, they'd be visiting the lungs. And, being adaptive, I thought it was something about the shape of covid and hence the antibodies that kicked off the storm in the lungs, and not necessarily the quantity or prevalence of the antigen in the lungs. But, turns out it's part of the innate immune system, and seems like cytokines are mostly produced near the infection itself.