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> And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists. I see Linus still hasn'

> And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists. I see Linus still hasn't changed much.

moralestapia 5y ago
Yeah, the anger management sessions didn't do much. Also, some of the things he states are wrong (or unverified) as well. I wish people had the maturity of being able to discuss sensitive topics without having it degenerate into a visceral fight. For instance, I'm not being rude or anything, I'm just sharing my knowledge from 10+ or so years doing science, not pushing an agenda and presenting arguments in a civilized manner. Yet, for some reason, some people don't like that, go figure. Similar to the chinese leak fiasco, it was a natural question to ask yet the agenda was to bury it as it if was wrong to question those things. A bit sad to be somebody who is just following the tides like some sort of insentient seaweed.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  What did he say that you would consider to be wrong or unverified?
  - panny 5y ago
    I'll bite. He says it's crazy conspiracy theories. I have family hospitalized with blood clots after receiving the vax. She's out now, but that hospitalization will lead to a personal bankruptcy. It's not crazy conspiracy theory when your own family starts seeing negative effects. After watching what happened to her, nobody else in my family has any desire to get vaxxed. Nobody in my family is "anti-vax" as we've all gotten vaxed at birth, have voluntarily gotten flu vaccines in the past, etc. It's anti-this-vax, because it is not fully tested, and has caused real harm to people. What happened to "First, do no harm"?
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      The vaccine has saved far more people than have died due to the blood clots.
      - hackinthebochs 5y ago
        That's reassuring from a public health perspective, not so reassuring from an individual perspective. When it comes to one's personal risk, you have a sense of control over not getting COVID, and/or are personally at low risk of severe complications, which can weigh in favor of avoiding a vaccine with extremely rare but serious side effects.
        Nursie 5y ago
        You can, but almost always people weigh this up incorrectly.
    - miloignis 5y ago
      Linus is responding specifically to the allegations made that the mRNA vaccines change your genes "into a new humanoid race", which I think can reasonably count as a conspiracy theory. Additionally, I don't believe the mRNA vaccines are the ones linked to blood clots (a big part of mRNA vaccines is that they should be safer and more effective!), but I'm sorry to hear about your family member's hospitalization. I think vaccination is the best thing we can do cost/benefit wise and recommend it wholeheartedly, but I respect those waiting for more testing if they continue to take appropriate precautions. Good luck to you and yours!
    - Nursie 5y ago
      Do you recognise how rare a reaction that is? Compared to adverse effects of the disease itself?
    - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
      I’m sorry your family member had this serious but exceedingly rare reaction to the vaccine, but here’s the thing: when, exactly, do you propose making the call to go ahead and get your family vaccinated? When vaccines are provably 100% safe? Probably not. So how about five nines, 99.999% safe? Well, no, apparently that’s not good enough for you, because that’s roughly what we’ve got. When it comes to fatal reactions to the vaccines, it’s past six nines. And of course, that still means that out of 330 million Americans, we could expect 33 to die from the vaccine! That’s dozens! Compared to over a half a million dead and still counting from Covid-19. Again, it sucks that serious, life-threatening side effects from the vaccine are possible, and sucks more than you’ve been personally touched by them. But the chances are still literally orders of magnitude greater that you will suffer serious, life-threatening side effects if you get Covid-19. Including blood clots. More people have been hospitalized by or even died from blood clots caused by Covid than they have from the blood clots caused by the vaccines. By a lot.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Well, there's a lot of evidence for mRNA transfer between species in other kingdoms; read on about reverse transcriptase[1] that is literally how some viruses spread when they enter the human body. Whether that mechanism still goes on when some of the components are missing, well, we presume it won't happen but there's not enough and definite evidence for that. And for those who love appealing to authority, I do have bachelor and master degrees in bioscience, unlike Linus and most of the readers here, so :^) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase Edit, happens all the time, in many different contexts: [2]: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 [3]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19396360701876815 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/193963607018768... [4]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 [5]: https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 <-- not sure about this one, I only skimmed it I could go on and on, but you get the idea, if there's something you learn (or should learn) in biology is that the exception is the rule. Edit 2: Lol, would love to read you comments on this: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118
    - zamalek 5y ago
      The mRNA in this case has chromosomes that cannot be replicated by nature. You might try researching the mRNA vaccine.
      - moralestapia 5y ago
        That's what you don't seem to get. I'm not saying it does happen, neither am I saying it does not happen. There's not enough evidence, that's it. Why is that so hard to grasp? And there's evidence of it happening in plenty of other contexts, so one wouldn't be crazy to believe that at least, in principle, it could happen here as well.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- enb 5y ago
  No, the anger has been adequately directed in this instance.
emilsedgh 5y ago
Good.
marcodiego 5y ago
This is much more gentle than the old Torvalds.
- foxpurple 5y ago
  He should bring back the “retroactively aborted” comment.
swinnipeg 5y ago
And this... >But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me. He hasn't lost his fastball!
daguava 5y ago
Sometimes people need to be yelled at and shut down - antivax is one of them.
ttt0 5y ago
It's okay only when he acts like that towards people we don't like. But if it's me being stupid then he's unwelcoming and toxic.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
It's kind of "his house". He isn't going to let someone use his platform to spew something he considers to be not only clearly wrong, but dangerously harmful. If I owned a newsgroup, I might well feel the same.
rodgerd 5y ago
He's mostly changed quite a bit. I think this is a good case where Linus can have a little rant, as a treat.

> And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists. I see Linus still hasn't changed much.

moralestapia 5y ago

Yeah, the anger management sessions didn't do much. Also, some of the things he states are wrong (or unverified) as well. I wish people had the maturity of being able to discuss sensitive topics without having it degenerate into a visceral fight. For instance, I'm not being rude or anything, I'm just sharing my knowledge from 10+ or so years doing science, not pushing an agenda and presenting arguments in a civilized manner. Yet, for some reason, some people don't like that, go figure. Similar to the chinese leak fiasco, it was a natural question to ask yet the agenda was to bury it as it if was wrong to question those things. A bit sad to be somebody who is just following the tides like some sort of insentient seaweed.

lalaland1125 5y ago
What did he say that you would consider to be wrong or unverified?
- panny 5y ago
  I'll bite. He says it's crazy conspiracy theories. I have family hospitalized with blood clots after receiving the vax. She's out now, but that hospitalization will lead to a personal bankruptcy. It's not crazy conspiracy theory when your own family starts seeing negative effects. After watching what happened to her, nobody else in my family has any desire to get vaxxed. Nobody in my family is "anti-vax" as we've all gotten vaxed at birth, have voluntarily gotten flu vaccines in the past, etc. It's anti-this-vax, because it is not fully tested, and has caused real harm to people. What happened to "First, do no harm"?
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    The vaccine has saved far more people than have died due to the blood clots.
    - hackinthebochs 5y ago
      That's reassuring from a public health perspective, not so reassuring from an individual perspective. When it comes to one's personal risk, you have a sense of control over not getting COVID, and/or are personally at low risk of severe complications, which can weigh in favor of avoiding a vaccine with extremely rare but serious side effects.
      - Nursie 5y ago
        You can, but almost always people weigh this up incorrectly.
  - miloignis 5y ago
    Linus is responding specifically to the allegations made that the mRNA vaccines change your genes "into a new humanoid race", which I think can reasonably count as a conspiracy theory. Additionally, I don't believe the mRNA vaccines are the ones linked to blood clots (a big part of mRNA vaccines is that they should be safer and more effective!), but I'm sorry to hear about your family member's hospitalization. I think vaccination is the best thing we can do cost/benefit wise and recommend it wholeheartedly, but I respect those waiting for more testing if they continue to take appropriate precautions. Good luck to you and yours!
  - Nursie 5y ago
    Do you recognise how rare a reaction that is? Compared to adverse effects of the disease itself?
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    I’m sorry your family member had this serious but exceedingly rare reaction to the vaccine, but here’s the thing: when, exactly, do you propose making the call to go ahead and get your family vaccinated? When vaccines are provably 100% safe? Probably not. So how about five nines, 99.999% safe? Well, no, apparently that’s not good enough for you, because that’s roughly what we’ve got. When it comes to fatal reactions to the vaccines, it’s past six nines. And of course, that still means that out of 330 million Americans, we could expect 33 to die from the vaccine! That’s dozens! Compared to over a half a million dead and still counting from Covid-19. Again, it sucks that serious, life-threatening side effects from the vaccine are possible, and sucks more than you’ve been personally touched by them. But the chances are still literally orders of magnitude greater that you will suffer serious, life-threatening side effects if you get Covid-19. Including blood clots. More people have been hospitalized by or even died from blood clots caused by Covid than they have from the blood clots caused by the vaccines. By a lot.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Well, there's a lot of evidence for mRNA transfer between species in other kingdoms; read on about reverse transcriptase[1] that is literally how some viruses spread when they enter the human body. Whether that mechanism still goes on when some of the components are missing, well, we presume it won't happen but there's not enough and definite evidence for that. And for those who love appealing to authority, I do have bachelor and master degrees in bioscience, unlike Linus and most of the readers here, so :^) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase Edit, happens all the time, in many different contexts: [2]: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 [3]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19396360701876815 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/193963607018768... [4]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 [5]: https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 <-- not sure about this one, I only skimmed it I could go on and on, but you get the idea, if there's something you learn (or should learn) in biology is that the exception is the rule. Edit 2: Lol, would love to read you comments on this: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118
  - zamalek 5y ago
    The mRNA in this case has chromosomes that cannot be replicated by nature. You might try researching the mRNA vaccine.
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      That's what you don't seem to get. I'm not saying it does happen, neither am I saying it does not happen. There's not enough evidence, that's it. Why is that so hard to grasp? And there's evidence of it happening in plenty of other contexts, so one wouldn't be crazy to believe that at least, in principle, it could happen here as well.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
enb 5y ago
No, the anger has been adequately directed in this instance.

emilsedgh 5y ago

Good.

marcodiego 5y ago

This is much more gentle than the old Torvalds.

foxpurple 5y ago
He should bring back the “retroactively aborted” comment.

swinnipeg 5y ago

And this... >But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me. He hasn't lost his fastball!

daguava 5y ago

Sometimes people need to be yelled at and shut down - antivax is one of them.

ttt0 5y ago

It's okay only when he acts like that towards people we don't like. But if it's me being stupid then he's unwelcoming and toxic.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

It's kind of "his house". He isn't going to let someone use his platform to spew something he considers to be not only clearly wrong, but dangerously harmful. If I owned a newsgroup, I might well feel the same.

rodgerd 5y ago

He's mostly changed quite a bit. I think this is a good case where Linus can have a little rant, as a treat.