8 ms·

I think even if you are a paid troll, you should probably branch out in your interests. There's no real coherent thread or sense of personality coming out in yo

I think even if you are a paid troll, you should probably branch out in your interests. There's no real coherent thread or sense of personality coming out in your commentary - it's just 'argument winners', factoids and framings that push a certain view. And maybe you just like to win more than you like providing clear analysis - I'm certainly sympathetic with the idea of cooling geopolitical tensions, but I think the way you're doing it will never work. (This goes double if you're a paid troll, China is just awful at soft power for structural reasons - a core competence for politicians in a democracy is spin. Trying to astroturf past that is just pissing in the wind.)

xtian 5y ago
I get downvoted for posting undisputed facts that conflict with Western narratives. I would get downvoted even more for my actual analysis. I do like how often people seem to think that the only reason someone might contradict Western narratives if they’re getting paid to do so. I’m just a white dude from Ohio who wants an end to endless war and imperialism.
- bingbong70 5y ago
  This notion that everyone skeptical of western defense contractor funded claims is paid by China is a sad evolution of the close minded rebuttals that existed during the Iraq WMD period. There is no counter to this false claim online which is why it is unfortunately effective in shutting down discourse. I guess we are stupid enough to walk into a potential war the same way we were scammed into one not too long ago. We already forgot the lessons as a population.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > This notion that everyone skeptical of western defense contractor funded claims is paid by China … I don’t see anyone saying anything about skepticism or ‘everyone’. I see pasabagi criticizing xtian’s specific comments and approach. > I guess we are stupid enough to walk into a potential war the same way we were scammed into one not too long ago. We already forgot the lessons as a population. Yes, getting scammed into a war with China would be bad. Assuming any negative comment about China to be an attempt to scam us into a war also seems like a mistake.
    - bingbong70 5y ago
      >I see pasabagi criticizing xtian’s specific comments and approach. I see him implying that the comments/observations are not in good faith and that he might be paid for taking the positions he takes. This seems completely unnecessary and quite rude. >Assuming any negative comment about China to be an attempt to scam us into a war also seems like a mistake. You may not recognize the increased sinophobia in the west but it is part of a well funded centralized effort to demonize and increase the potential for kinetic warfare between western countries and China. The fact that HN acts like an echo chamber for state approved anti-Chinese perspectives doesn't help matters. A close reading of sino-western historic/economic relations results in a very different perspective than the one which is promoted in western MSM by corrupted organizations.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > You may not recognize the increased sinophobia in the west but it is part of a well funded centralized effort to demonize and increase the potential for kinetic warfare between western countries and China. Is it? It’s clearly geopolitical, but the claim that it’s intended to lead to kinetic warfare seems like something you don’t have evidence for.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        The fact that so much of it is funded by defence contractors isn't a clue? Google ["Xinjiang" "ASPI"] for examples. Or maybe the massive buildup of missiles and warplanes around China could be a clues? We are now at a stage where geopolitical hostility with China has a good chance of turning kinetic if exacerbated, and there is funding from exactly the parties that would stand to benefit from that, so I don't see how this lacks evidence.
        zepto 5y ago
        > Or maybe the massive buildup of missiles and warplanes around China could be a clues? If there is such a buildup (evidence?), it seems like a natural response to check China’s increasing overtures towards Taiwan, a key strategic ally. There is no evidence that anyone wants a kinetic war for its own sake or that any development in that direction is ‘just’ a product of the defense industry. China is involved in geopolitics and just as much as the US. What’s curious here is not the invocation of well known bad acts by the US. It’s the presentation of China as a benign victim who has no geopolitical ambitions, oppressive behavior, or political repression.
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  If you're operating in good faith and genuinely want to persuade people, then your takeaway from this exchange is that how you're doing it isn't working and you should rethink your approach.
  - xtian 5y ago
    What would be more persuasive?
    - jmpman 5y ago
      A more persuasive argument would be something like: Concede the point that the CCP has motivation to perform these acts, has the capability to hide these acts, and a reason to attempt to deflect any investigation which might reveal the acts. Maybe the CCP has provided free and unguided access of independent western journalists to these supposed camps, where they discovered nothing more than a shoe factory. That’s didn’t happen. Unfortunately, without the free press investigating, the CCP opens themselves up to criticisms, that, based upon their historical actions, is hard to defend.
      - xtian 5y ago
        I reject all your premises. How would it be more persuasive to take a weaker position?
        chitowneats 5y ago
        You would be persuasive if you weren't a blatant CCP astroturfing account. Constantly making strange arguments that seek to distract and confuse. Obvious to anyone familiar with the tactics.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        dang 5y ago
        You can't break HN's rules like this, regardless of how you feel about another account. This is a well-established principle that has been explained ad nauseum in the past. If you want to see those past explanations, many are at these links: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20-recycling%20chin&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- zepto 5y ago
  > I’m just a white dude from Ohio who wants an end to endless war and imperialism. How would anyone know this?
  - xtian 5y ago
    What proof do you want?
Dah00n 5y ago
Please stop this attack on his person. We really need to be able to summon dang..
- dang 5y ago
  I eventually ended up here, but if you want to contact me, the reliable way is to email hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines say: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

xtian 5y ago

I get downvoted for posting undisputed facts that conflict with Western narratives. I would get downvoted even more for my actual analysis. I do like how often people seem to think that the only reason someone might contradict Western narratives if they’re getting paid to do so. I’m just a white dude from Ohio who wants an end to endless war and imperialism.

bingbong70 5y ago
This notion that everyone skeptical of western defense contractor funded claims is paid by China is a sad evolution of the close minded rebuttals that existed during the Iraq WMD period. There is no counter to this false claim online which is why it is unfortunately effective in shutting down discourse. I guess we are stupid enough to walk into a potential war the same way we were scammed into one not too long ago. We already forgot the lessons as a population.
- zepto 5y ago
  > This notion that everyone skeptical of western defense contractor funded claims is paid by China … I don’t see anyone saying anything about skepticism or ‘everyone’. I see pasabagi criticizing xtian’s specific comments and approach. > I guess we are stupid enough to walk into a potential war the same way we were scammed into one not too long ago. We already forgot the lessons as a population. Yes, getting scammed into a war with China would be bad. Assuming any negative comment about China to be an attempt to scam us into a war also seems like a mistake.
  - bingbong70 5y ago
    >I see pasabagi criticizing xtian’s specific comments and approach. I see him implying that the comments/observations are not in good faith and that he might be paid for taking the positions he takes. This seems completely unnecessary and quite rude. >Assuming any negative comment about China to be an attempt to scam us into a war also seems like a mistake. You may not recognize the increased sinophobia in the west but it is part of a well funded centralized effort to demonize and increase the potential for kinetic warfare between western countries and China. The fact that HN acts like an echo chamber for state approved anti-Chinese perspectives doesn't help matters. A close reading of sino-western historic/economic relations results in a very different perspective than the one which is promoted in western MSM by corrupted organizations.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > You may not recognize the increased sinophobia in the west but it is part of a well funded centralized effort to demonize and increase the potential for kinetic warfare between western countries and China. Is it? It’s clearly geopolitical, but the claim that it’s intended to lead to kinetic warfare seems like something you don’t have evidence for.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        The fact that so much of it is funded by defence contractors isn't a clue? Google ["Xinjiang" "ASPI"] for examples. Or maybe the massive buildup of missiles and warplanes around China could be a clues? We are now at a stage where geopolitical hostility with China has a good chance of turning kinetic if exacerbated, and there is funding from exactly the parties that would stand to benefit from that, so I don't see how this lacks evidence.
        zepto 5y ago
        > Or maybe the massive buildup of missiles and warplanes around China could be a clues? If there is such a buildup (evidence?), it seems like a natural response to check China’s increasing overtures towards Taiwan, a key strategic ally. There is no evidence that anyone wants a kinetic war for its own sake or that any development in that direction is ‘just’ a product of the defense industry. China is involved in geopolitics and just as much as the US. What’s curious here is not the invocation of well known bad acts by the US. It’s the presentation of China as a benign victim who has no geopolitical ambitions, oppressive behavior, or political repression.
plorkyeran 5y ago
If you're operating in good faith and genuinely want to persuade people, then your takeaway from this exchange is that how you're doing it isn't working and you should rethink your approach.
- xtian 5y ago
  What would be more persuasive?
  - jmpman 5y ago
    A more persuasive argument would be something like: Concede the point that the CCP has motivation to perform these acts, has the capability to hide these acts, and a reason to attempt to deflect any investigation which might reveal the acts. Maybe the CCP has provided free and unguided access of independent western journalists to these supposed camps, where they discovered nothing more than a shoe factory. That’s didn’t happen. Unfortunately, without the free press investigating, the CCP opens themselves up to criticisms, that, based upon their historical actions, is hard to defend.
    - xtian 5y ago
      I reject all your premises. How would it be more persuasive to take a weaker position?
      - chitowneats 5y ago
        You would be persuasive if you weren't a blatant CCP astroturfing account. Constantly making strange arguments that seek to distract and confuse. Obvious to anyone familiar with the tactics.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        dang 5y ago
        You can't break HN's rules like this, regardless of how you feel about another account. This is a well-established principle that has been explained ad nauseum in the past. If you want to see those past explanations, many are at these links: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20-recycling%20chin&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
zepto 5y ago
> I’m just a white dude from Ohio who wants an end to endless war and imperialism. How would anyone know this?
- xtian 5y ago
  What proof do you want?

Dah00n 5y ago

Please stop this attack on his person. We really need to be able to summon dang..

dang 5y ago
I eventually ended up here, but if you want to contact me, the reliable way is to email hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines say: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.