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It sounds like high school policy debates teach the opposite of rational thought. Authority is a useful heuristic for finding truth, but a good argument (which

It sounds like high school policy debates teach the opposite of rational thought. Authority is a useful heuristic for finding truth, but a good argument (which can in principle come from anyone) overrides authority. Here's a good post explaining the concept: http://lesswrong.com/lw/lx/argument_screens_off_authority/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lx/argument_screens_off_authority/

rfrey 15y ago
It sounds like high school policy debates teach the opposite of rational thought It's always been so. Socrates' greatest enemy wasn't Aristophanes. They were the Sophists - teachers who would teach debating skills with no regard for truth. This kind of "debate" and the worldview behind it is the most insidious kind of cynicism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism
- dgabriel 15y ago
  Agreed. In my experience, the debaters don't have any conviction at all, just a folio of out-of-context quotes and a strong grasp of technicalities. That said, in an ideal world debate teaches thorough research and rhetorical skills, and I found that learning "flowing," was pretty helpful in other areas of my life.
- wisty 15y ago
  That could just be Socrates' (well, really Plato's) somewhat sophistic portrayal of them. The Sophists were a sort of combination of academics, scientists, philosophers, politicians, and lawyers. So they got a fair share of distain. I'm guessing that calling someone a "Sophist" was like calling them an "academic". Even people who are academics themselves will do it, to try and drum up a bit of street cred.
- kmfrk 15y ago
  Good thing some of us are able to refrain from referring to external sources as appeals to authority to legitimize our own arguments, right? :)
  - rfrey 15y ago
    I was pointing out that this problem has existed and been recognized for at least 2500 years, as evidenced by extant writings of Plato. How is that an appeal to authority?
- Tichy 15y ago
  The problem might be that this is how the real world works, or the minds of most of the people who vote in democracies. While I admire Socrates more, didn't he essentially live like a bum? Maybe to really get enough influence to move something, you have to play the game. Not that I like it - that is why I am a software developer, not a politician. The real hacker mindset would be to try to figure out how people's minds work and take advantage of it (for a greater good, of course).

rfrey 15y ago

It sounds like high school policy debates teach the opposite of rational thought It's always been so. Socrates' greatest enemy wasn't Aristophanes. They were the Sophists - teachers who would teach debating skills with no regard for truth. This kind of "debate" and the worldview behind it is the most insidious kind of cynicism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism

dgabriel 15y ago
Agreed. In my experience, the debaters don't have any conviction at all, just a folio of out-of-context quotes and a strong grasp of technicalities. That said, in an ideal world debate teaches thorough research and rhetorical skills, and I found that learning "flowing," was pretty helpful in other areas of my life.
wisty 15y ago
That could just be Socrates' (well, really Plato's) somewhat sophistic portrayal of them. The Sophists were a sort of combination of academics, scientists, philosophers, politicians, and lawyers. So they got a fair share of distain. I'm guessing that calling someone a "Sophist" was like calling them an "academic". Even people who are academics themselves will do it, to try and drum up a bit of street cred.
kmfrk 15y ago
Good thing some of us are able to refrain from referring to external sources as appeals to authority to legitimize our own arguments, right? :)
- rfrey 15y ago
  I was pointing out that this problem has existed and been recognized for at least 2500 years, as evidenced by extant writings of Plato. How is that an appeal to authority?
Tichy 15y ago
The problem might be that this is how the real world works, or the minds of most of the people who vote in democracies. While I admire Socrates more, didn't he essentially live like a bum? Maybe to really get enough influence to move something, you have to play the game. Not that I like it - that is why I am a software developer, not a politician. The real hacker mindset would be to try to figure out how people's minds work and take advantage of it (for a greater good, of course).