6 ms·

This is based on VAERS data. I encourage the curious to look at this data. I did. I would characterize its quality as so poor that probably no conclusions at al

This is based on VAERS data. I encourage the curious to look at this data. I did. I would characterize its quality as so poor that probably no conclusions at all can be drawn from it. And I usually find myself defending the use of noisy and/or small data in similar situations.

ezekg 5y ago
I've heard less than 1% of adverse reactions are actually reported to VAERS.
- Kognito 5y ago
  Yeah, how many people actually bother to report their symptoms if they’re not serious enough to warrant a trip to the doctor (who might report on their behalf)? Mild myo can go undetected quite easily. In fact, it’s known well as being a cause of death in young athletes who only learn of the condition when their heart gives out during intense physical exertion.
  - notjes 5y ago
    I am curious: Who reports that dude that died of a heart attack laying in a ditch somewhere.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Anecdotally, my girlfriend got the moderna vaccine and got pretty bad skin rashes from it. She went to report it through a link her provider sent her, but the website would not allow her to report any side effects because it had been longer than 48 hours since her shot.
- larrywright 5y ago
  I’ve heard this too, from anti-vaxxers mostly. VAERS is the medical equivalent of Yelp. Anyone can post anything there and looking at the unverified data is not a reliable indication of anything. And, anti-vaxxers have been known to go report things in order to bolster their arguments.
  - bena 5y ago
    Not to mention, people who parrot that extrapolation don't give the same sort of consideration in the other direction. Every assumption goes towards their preferred conspiracy.
shadowgovt 5y ago
VAERS is a clearinghouse. It's a vital tool for finding evidence of possible unexpected interactions that should be investigated, but it's basically textbook "correlations that do not imply causation" data. The most a correlation in VAERS, by itself, should ever generate is a "huh, that's interesting" reaction and possibly a controlled follow-up study. HHS has a very large disclaimer on the dataset's description (https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html). The data is also, at this phase of collection, unfiltered and unverified. Self-reporting biases and simple mistakes are a known concern. There's a relatively famous story of someone, as a sanity-check on the process, reporting that a flu vaccine had turned them into the Incredible Hulk. https://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism https://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiver...
DaniloDias 5y ago
What is the right way to collect this data, given that the frontline practitioners are actively discouraging any patients from making a connection for adverse reactions with the vaccine? Put another way: Isn’t VAERS a necessary solution to ensure that the healthcare system does not misrepresent the safety of the vaccines? Transparency should be a first principle requirement for science.
- dv_dt 5y ago
  After both doses of my vaccine I was given a link and instructions how to report adverse reactions.
  - jb775 5y ago
    By the looks of it, you should keep that handy.
    - dv_dt 5y ago
      I’m a few weeks past the most likely time period for this to show up, and I can Google so not too worried about keeping it handy. If you do have symptoms I’d contact my regular doctor first anyway.
- smhenderson 5y ago
  given that the frontline practitioners are actively discouraging any patients from making a connection for adverse reactions with the vaccine? Do you have a source for this? As another poster replied, I was encouraged to report symptoms and given a packet with information on what to look out for, what to report and a website to do so. Same with my wife and two adult children.
  - mypalmike 5y ago
    I was also encouraged to report symptoms (or lack thereof) through a website. Unfortunately the website was thoroughly broken and I was unable to do so.
notjes 5y ago
Covid-19 is meticulously measured and tracked in every human being, but no one is interested in adverse vaccine effects. Things that make you think...
- codyb 5y ago
  No one's interested in adverse vaccine side effects? That seems rather counter to my impression which is based on the number of adults who're hesitant and the fact that FDA halted use of Johnson and Johnson vaccines once already and Europe has had it's own fair share of hand wringing about the Astro-Zeneca vaccine.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    Agreed with your observation. Every news source has been brimming with stories on potential adverse reactions as they are discovered, including ones that I'm sure GP would dismiss as "MSM" or "the radical left." The reality is that all current evidence suggests the virus is still far worse than any vaccine side effects.
    - bena 5y ago
      I mean, look at the guy's hyperbolic rhetoric. He's not interested in any discussion in which he might have to confront the fact that he is wrong.
  - Fomite 5y ago
    Working with data from monitoring vaccine side effects were two of my early projects in graduate school. They are intensely monitored - vaccine data is some of the best quality data in the infectious disease world.
walterbell 5y ago
> Shimabukuro also said the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) - another safety monitoring system - showed an increased incidence of heart inflammation in 16 to 39 year olds after their second shot when compared to the rate observed after the first dose. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/... > The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) is a collaborative project between CDC’s Immunization Safety Office and nine health care organizations. The VSD started in 1990 and continues today in order to monitor safety of vaccines and conduct studies about rare and serious adverse events following immunization. The nine HMOs are: Kaiser Permanente Washington, Seattle, WA Harvard Pilgrim Health Care Institute, Boston, MA HealthPartners Institute, Minneapolis, MN Kaiser Permanente Northwest, Portland, OR Kaiser Permanente Northern CA Kaiser Permanente CO Denver Health, CO Marshfield Clinic Research Institute, WI Kaiser Permanente Southern CA
jb775 5y ago
So instead of wanting to look into a possible major issue with the safety of the Covid vaccines, you'd rather insult the data without providing any substantiating source, then put your hands over your ears and say "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUU LA LA LA LA"
Fomite 5y ago
The...stunning mediocrity of VAERS data is in the "it is known" category, and has been since well before I started graduate school. It's important because it's useful for emergent self-reported issues, but there's a reason the concept of post-licensure trials exist.
nikolay 5y ago
Israel had the same findings though.

ezekg 5y ago

I've heard less than 1% of adverse reactions are actually reported to VAERS.

Kognito 5y ago
Yeah, how many people actually bother to report their symptoms if they’re not serious enough to warrant a trip to the doctor (who might report on their behalf)? Mild myo can go undetected quite easily. In fact, it’s known well as being a cause of death in young athletes who only learn of the condition when their heart gives out during intense physical exertion.
- notjes 5y ago
  I am curious: Who reports that dude that died of a heart attack laying in a ditch somewhere.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  Anecdotally, my girlfriend got the moderna vaccine and got pretty bad skin rashes from it. She went to report it through a link her provider sent her, but the website would not allow her to report any side effects because it had been longer than 48 hours since her shot.
larrywright 5y ago
I’ve heard this too, from anti-vaxxers mostly. VAERS is the medical equivalent of Yelp. Anyone can post anything there and looking at the unverified data is not a reliable indication of anything. And, anti-vaxxers have been known to go report things in order to bolster their arguments.
- bena 5y ago
  Not to mention, people who parrot that extrapolation don't give the same sort of consideration in the other direction. Every assumption goes towards their preferred conspiracy.

shadowgovt 5y ago

VAERS is a clearinghouse. It's a vital tool for finding evidence of possible unexpected interactions that should be investigated, but it's basically textbook "correlations that do not imply causation" data. The most a correlation in VAERS, by itself, should ever generate is a "huh, that's interesting" reaction and possibly a controlled follow-up study. HHS has a very large disclaimer on the dataset's description (https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html). The data is also, at this phase of collection, unfiltered and unverified. Self-reporting biases and simple mistakes are a known concern. There's a relatively famous story of someone, as a sanity-check on the process, reporting that a flu vaccine had turned them into the Incredible Hulk. https://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism https://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiver...

DaniloDias 5y ago

What is the right way to collect this data, given that the frontline practitioners are actively discouraging any patients from making a connection for adverse reactions with the vaccine? Put another way: Isn’t VAERS a necessary solution to ensure that the healthcare system does not misrepresent the safety of the vaccines? Transparency should be a first principle requirement for science.

dv_dt 5y ago
After both doses of my vaccine I was given a link and instructions how to report adverse reactions.
- jb775 5y ago
  By the looks of it, you should keep that handy.
  - dv_dt 5y ago
    I’m a few weeks past the most likely time period for this to show up, and I can Google so not too worried about keeping it handy. If you do have symptoms I’d contact my regular doctor first anyway.
smhenderson 5y ago
given that the frontline practitioners are actively discouraging any patients from making a connection for adverse reactions with the vaccine? Do you have a source for this? As another poster replied, I was encouraged to report symptoms and given a packet with information on what to look out for, what to report and a website to do so. Same with my wife and two adult children.
- mypalmike 5y ago
  I was also encouraged to report symptoms (or lack thereof) through a website. Unfortunately the website was thoroughly broken and I was unable to do so.

notjes 5y ago

Covid-19 is meticulously measured and tracked in every human being, but no one is interested in adverse vaccine effects. Things that make you think...

codyb 5y ago
No one's interested in adverse vaccine side effects? That seems rather counter to my impression which is based on the number of adults who're hesitant and the fact that FDA halted use of Johnson and Johnson vaccines once already and Europe has had it's own fair share of hand wringing about the Astro-Zeneca vaccine.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  Agreed with your observation. Every news source has been brimming with stories on potential adverse reactions as they are discovered, including ones that I'm sure GP would dismiss as "MSM" or "the radical left." The reality is that all current evidence suggests the virus is still far worse than any vaccine side effects.
  - bena 5y ago
    I mean, look at the guy's hyperbolic rhetoric. He's not interested in any discussion in which he might have to confront the fact that he is wrong.
- Fomite 5y ago
  Working with data from monitoring vaccine side effects were two of my early projects in graduate school. They are intensely monitored - vaccine data is some of the best quality data in the infectious disease world.

walterbell 5y ago

> Shimabukuro also said the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) - another safety monitoring system - showed an increased incidence of heart inflammation in 16 to 39 year olds after their second shot when compared to the rate observed after the first dose. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/... > The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) is a collaborative project between CDC’s Immunization Safety Office and nine health care organizations. The VSD started in 1990 and continues today in order to monitor safety of vaccines and conduct studies about rare and serious adverse events following immunization. The nine HMOs are: Kaiser Permanente Washington, Seattle, WA Harvard Pilgrim Health Care Institute, Boston, MA HealthPartners Institute, Minneapolis, MN Kaiser Permanente Northwest, Portland, OR Kaiser Permanente Northern CA Kaiser Permanente CO Denver Health, CO Marshfield Clinic Research Institute, WI Kaiser Permanente Southern CA

jb775 5y ago

So instead of wanting to look into a possible major issue with the safety of the Covid vaccines, you'd rather insult the data without providing any substantiating source, then put your hands over your ears and say "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUU LA LA LA LA"

Fomite 5y ago

The...stunning mediocrity of VAERS data is in the "it is known" category, and has been since well before I started graduate school. It's important because it's useful for emergent self-reported issues, but there's a reason the concept of post-licensure trials exist.

nikolay 5y ago

Israel had the same findings though.