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I don't want to discount this kind of reason for wanting to "return to the office", and I think it's definitely part of the cause. However, speaking as an Indi

I don't want to discount this kind of reason for wanting to "return to the office", and I think it's definitely part of the cause. However, speaking as an Individual Contributor, I want to be back in the office so badly. I miss feeling really, humanly connected to my teammates. There's just no positive sense of camaraderie. Sure, we can bitch together about things, but I just find myself unable to connect with my coworkers as fellow human beings in my monkey sphere. Before we went WFH I legitimately loved my job. Now I hate it.

ghaff 5y ago
Of course, you're depending on your coworkers feeling likewise.
matz1 5y ago
Instead of 100% return to the office how about having (optional) get together offline meetup every once in a while, it can be about work or simple lunch.
- ebiester 5y ago
  How do you do that when everyone lives x,000 miles away now? Why would I stay in <big city close enough to commute> and pay <outrageous> rent/mortgage if I'm remote? (Honest truth: that's what remoter weeks are for.)
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    Could flying the remote staff to an in-person meeting every 1-2 months be a good balance? As long as the flights are reasonably short (e.g., within the continental U.S. or within the E.U.), it's probably still cheaper than maintaining office space for the remote workers.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Quarterly is more doable. That's basically what my extended team did pre-pandemic.
      - throwaway_25434 5y ago
        And now you are discriminating against senior people with family/kids who just can’t fly out of town for a week every couple months.
        matz1 5y ago
        at some point, you just have to say : well that's too bad.
        ghaff 5y ago
        Quarterly (or less often) is every 3 months. And at least all the senior people I work with already travel a lot more often that that under normal circumstances. People can and should absolutely pick the jobs that work for them. And that may include positions where you go into an office daily and rarely travel. But, traveling to an off/on-site every few months for a work week is probably one of the costs you pay if you want to be remote. If you want a position that is 100% remote that never requires you to physically leave your home, you're welcome to look for such. But don't expect a lot of options at a well-paying tech job. Unless you can do something as a remote consultant.
        irq 5y ago
        > If you want a position that is 100% remote that never requires you to physically leave your home, you're welcome to look for such. Every job I've had from 2010 to 2021 has been like this. Some had optional but not required in person meetups, some had no meetups. These jobs are not hard to find if you have a good reputation for being effective remotely.
        ghaff 5y ago
        I don't disagree. But being well-known as a good 100% remote worker will be a high bar for a lot of people. (As is, at least your implication, of relatively short-term stints.) Most of my jobs have been in the ~10 year range.
  - enobrev 5y ago
    Just chiming in to say some of us live in the big expensive cities precisely because of the life we lead outside of work. Otherwise, agreed.
  - robotburrito 5y ago
    Because there is more to life than work and cheap rent. Large cities are cultural hubs with thousands of interesting people and many wonderful things to experience.
twobitshifter 5y ago
Imagine a non-pandemic environment where you could go to a buddy’s house and work. Or for many people, their closest relationships are with their spouse and family. You no longer have to be separate from them for most of your waking hours. Work picks your “friends” for you and in many cases you won’t get along. It seems like you were lucky to be in a good situation.
- loopz 5y ago
  I wouldn't want to mix friendships and work. I'd also be wary about alliances forming outside of the workplace.
  - jimmyspice 5y ago
    I think they meant working at a non-colleagues house. At least, that's what I plan to do when it's possible, every now and then. I think the change of pace would be nice, back at university I'd do the same with people not on my course. Being genuinely fond of each other makes time go faster. Of course, I'd also want to work outside of the office, with my colleagues too. A change of environment every now and then can't hurt.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  > Imagine a non-pandemic environment where you could go to a buddy’s house and work. I'm imagining it and it sounds like the literal worst thing.
  - h4waii 5y ago
    You could, not have to. You would have the option to, while for most people they simply do not.
- hatchnyc 5y ago
  Pre-pandemic I used to occasionally do this with my coworkers and my boss, it was nice. Of course now all my coworkers and many people I knew have left the city and moved out of state, so this won't be possible again.
silicon2401 5y ago
As an IC, I fully support extroverts going back to the office. I just want introverts like myself to have the option to never go back to the office. I don't understand why people think it's either one or the other
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  As an introvert myself, I think I totally get your take on this. But I've also been the only remote member of an otherwise in-person team. It was a truly terrible experience (as many others have written). I fear that the policy you're suggesting would make everything better for those in the office (the extroverts) and worse for those working remotely (the introverts).
  - bpye 5y ago
    I have been in that position before, and with certain groups it has been difficult. My, perhaps optimistic, hope is that post-COVID even those that return to the office will be more understanding for the challenges of those that are remote, it is an experience we have all lived now.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Frankly there's not much I dislike more than having to be in the office. I'd take the risk any day of the week.
- stank345 5y ago
  FWIW I'm definitely an introvert and I can't wait to get back in the office. I don't want to have to talk to people all day but I really want some actual meatspace interaction. Being locked up for a year with two small children and only my wife as the other adult to talk to has not been good for my mental health.
  - bpye 5y ago
    Is this perhaps a COVID specific issue? Even during COVID I've kept in touch with a group of friends, albeit smaller. I still have the chance to go get a coffee or head to the gym, but I get to decide what those interactions are now.

ghaff 5y ago

Of course, you're depending on your coworkers feeling likewise.

matz1 5y ago

Instead of 100% return to the office how about having (optional) get together offline meetup every once in a while, it can be about work or simple lunch.

ebiester 5y ago
How do you do that when everyone lives x,000 miles away now? Why would I stay in <big city close enough to commute> and pay <outrageous> rent/mortgage if I'm remote? (Honest truth: that's what remoter weeks are for.)
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Could flying the remote staff to an in-person meeting every 1-2 months be a good balance? As long as the flights are reasonably short (e.g., within the continental U.S. or within the E.U.), it's probably still cheaper than maintaining office space for the remote workers.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Quarterly is more doable. That's basically what my extended team did pre-pandemic.
    - throwaway_25434 5y ago
      And now you are discriminating against senior people with family/kids who just can’t fly out of town for a week every couple months.
      - matz1 5y ago
        at some point, you just have to say : well that's too bad.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        Quarterly (or less often) is every 3 months. And at least all the senior people I work with already travel a lot more often that that under normal circumstances. People can and should absolutely pick the jobs that work for them. And that may include positions where you go into an office daily and rarely travel. But, traveling to an off/on-site every few months for a work week is probably one of the costs you pay if you want to be remote. If you want a position that is 100% remote that never requires you to physically leave your home, you're welcome to look for such. But don't expect a lot of options at a well-paying tech job. Unless you can do something as a remote consultant.
        irq 5y ago
        > If you want a position that is 100% remote that never requires you to physically leave your home, you're welcome to look for such. Every job I've had from 2010 to 2021 has been like this. Some had optional but not required in person meetups, some had no meetups. These jobs are not hard to find if you have a good reputation for being effective remotely.
        ghaff 5y ago
        I don't disagree. But being well-known as a good 100% remote worker will be a high bar for a lot of people. (As is, at least your implication, of relatively short-term stints.) Most of my jobs have been in the ~10 year range.
- enobrev 5y ago
  Just chiming in to say some of us live in the big expensive cities precisely because of the life we lead outside of work. Otherwise, agreed.
- robotburrito 5y ago
  Because there is more to life than work and cheap rent. Large cities are cultural hubs with thousands of interesting people and many wonderful things to experience.

twobitshifter 5y ago

Imagine a non-pandemic environment where you could go to a buddy’s house and work. Or for many people, their closest relationships are with their spouse and family. You no longer have to be separate from them for most of your waking hours. Work picks your “friends” for you and in many cases you won’t get along. It seems like you were lucky to be in a good situation.

loopz 5y ago
I wouldn't want to mix friendships and work. I'd also be wary about alliances forming outside of the workplace.
- jimmyspice 5y ago
  I think they meant working at a non-colleagues house. At least, that's what I plan to do when it's possible, every now and then. I think the change of pace would be nice, back at university I'd do the same with people not on my course. Being genuinely fond of each other makes time go faster. Of course, I'd also want to work outside of the office, with my colleagues too. A change of environment every now and then can't hurt.
rodgerd 5y ago
> Imagine a non-pandemic environment where you could go to a buddy’s house and work. I'm imagining it and it sounds like the literal worst thing.
- h4waii 5y ago
  You could, not have to. You would have the option to, while for most people they simply do not.
hatchnyc 5y ago
Pre-pandemic I used to occasionally do this with my coworkers and my boss, it was nice. Of course now all my coworkers and many people I knew have left the city and moved out of state, so this won't be possible again.

silicon2401 5y ago

As an IC, I fully support extroverts going back to the office. I just want introverts like myself to have the option to never go back to the office. I don't understand why people think it's either one or the other

CoastalCoder 5y ago
As an introvert myself, I think I totally get your take on this. But I've also been the only remote member of an otherwise in-person team. It was a truly terrible experience (as many others have written). I fear that the policy you're suggesting would make everything better for those in the office (the extroverts) and worse for those working remotely (the introverts).
- bpye 5y ago
  I have been in that position before, and with certain groups it has been difficult. My, perhaps optimistic, hope is that post-COVID even those that return to the office will be more understanding for the challenges of those that are remote, it is an experience we have all lived now.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Frankly there's not much I dislike more than having to be in the office. I'd take the risk any day of the week.
stank345 5y ago
FWIW I'm definitely an introvert and I can't wait to get back in the office. I don't want to have to talk to people all day but I really want some actual meatspace interaction. Being locked up for a year with two small children and only my wife as the other adult to talk to has not been good for my mental health.
- bpye 5y ago
  Is this perhaps a COVID specific issue? Even during COVID I've kept in touch with a group of friends, albeit smaller. I still have the chance to go get a coffee or head to the gym, but I get to decide what those interactions are now.