6 ms·

Serious question - what alternatives are left for those of us who want a dumb car? I've spent the last three months finding out I can't get solar panels install

Serious question - what alternatives are left for those of us who want a dumb car? I've spent the last three months finding out I can't get solar panels installed without a high-fidelity power-monitor tap connected to the provider's cloud, logging every appliance I use and what it's doing. Same deal with cars - they are on the internet and they generate evidence used to convict, and geofencing is coming. Other than stockpiling cars from 2010 - will we have alternatives? https://www.fox13news.com/news/evidence-showing-drivers-speed-before-bayshore-crash-that-killed-mother-baby-to-be-allowed-in-court https://www.fox13news.com/news/evidence-showing-drivers-spee...

quacked 5y ago
I don't think there are any. If you got to the point where you somehow managed to source the labor, materials, and space to manufacture "dumb technology", you'd be sued into oblivion by competitors who wouldn't want you to eat into their profit margins. I think the market is huge. Imagine a company that suddenly started selling all-metal consumer appliances with minimal functionality, controlled by old-fashioned switches, buttons, and knobs, designed to be repaired. They'd be insanely popular. Of course, that lack of subscription-model pricing and the high labor costs of worthwhile designers and manufacturers would also destroy the company, but my god, a boy can dream.
- mthomasmw 5y ago
  Vitamix
  - quacked 5y ago
    Looks great. It reminds me of my microwave, which has two dials on it and is better than every other microwave I've ever owned.
    - yurishimo 5y ago
      Now go look up the Thermomix. Apparently pretty popular in AUS/NZ but very niche in the States and Europe(?). Cool idea, but I can't imagine they have a long life if being used with any sort of regularity.
      - andredz 5y ago
        I've been using mine for many years. The only big problems I've had is that sometimes the scale doesn't work perfectly and I have to reset the weighting and that after so long the blades have been getting a little blunt; but they can be sharpened.
- brundolf 5y ago
  They'd be insanely popular in circles like HN. I think you have a warped perspective of what the typical buyer is enticed by.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > insanely popular in circles like HN Heck, even then I expect it would just be popular with a very small, very loud niche within HN.
    - circularfoyers 5y ago
      By loud I assume you mean the top comments, which says to me this is popular with the many not the few of the HN crowd.
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        I don't think I'm willing to go that far. What constitutes 'the HN crowd'? The folks who come here and read the stories, but do not read the comments? Or just the ones who read the comments? Or only the subset of those who read the comments who actually bother to vote. Or participate with their own commentary? It's pretty easy for a small subset of individuals to appear as if they accurately represent the wider group.
- jkepler 5y ago
  Won't t 3D-printing metal appliances be more and more widely feasible in coming years? And, at least here in the EU, right-to-repair [1] labeling gives consumers the ability to more efficiently vote with their wallets. Its also happening in the US [2] [1] https://repair.eu/ https://repair.eu/ [2] https://fr.ifixit.com/News/8748/right-to-repair https://fr.ifixit.com/News/8748/right-to-repair
  - scythe 5y ago
    Liquid steel requires enormously high temperature and magnesium/aluminium require an argon atmosphere. Titanium requires both. So unless you're going to make everything out of zinc (assuming we don't run out of zinc!), this may not be the cheap fix you're hoping for -- and zinc isn't very strong.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      There are also many types of steel that have widely varying properties. There are some (expensive) printers that print powdered metals (including steel) that is later sintered in an oven. They're certainly not large enough to make a car, and even if they were the properties of the material are likely not ideal, and the process would be prohibitively expensive.
    - the__alchemist 5y ago
      What do you think about the possibility of smaller/cheaper/easier 5-axis mills?
- covidthrow 5y ago
  The key is to hunt for commercial-grade appliances. In some cases, they can be found and offer similar form factors to consumer devices, and in others you may be out of luck. Commercial kitchen appliances, washers/dryers, and flat panel displays can be sourced to your expectations. Just prepare to spend 1.5-3x as much right out of the gate.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    Note that commercial-grade appliances may have unexpected side-effects. I have a speed queen commercial coin-op washer and it's highly reliable and easy to work on, but you can't do anything but a full cycle on it.
  - fock 5y ago
    the problem is that most of these are horrendously oversized for private use. So I would like to have a commercial agitator to create yeast dough; these aren't even that expensive for their small series and local production - compared to e.g. kitchen-aid stuff -, but I both don't have the space/floor to put down a 4sqft/1000 pound appliance and I certainly don't need a 5 gallon bowl for my dough... I'm sure you could create and sell a home-sized variant of these, but yeah, distribution won't be easy. I have to admit though that I sometimes dream of setting up a company, which just goes through all these relatively low-tech, electromechanical things and cyclically produces these. Problem is: it's capital intensive, low-margin, low-growth and requires you to keep people around. At this point you've lost everyone nowadays even if it is sustainable (nothing goes to waste when making these repairable) and keeps skills alive (which both the US and EU are paying extreme prices for through the military acquisition procedures). In this vein I also suspect that most people could easily afford to get their whole furniture sourced in a "raw wood" edition (to be painted/oiled) from local woodworking shops, as the price difference is virtually nonexistent (built a bed with the help of friendly non-CNC-shops: was 12h of work, which clocks in at maybe 900USD. Material was 300.). If I go to a non-ikea, but industrial/imported furniture-store, similar quality would have cost me ~4000USD. But of course, a healthy ecosystem of woodworkers and designers would not concentrate wealth.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yardie 5y ago
EVs are quite simply and there has been a small, but growing base of users using AC induction motors on sailboats. I imagine you're going to need a pre-OBDII car and some mechanical skills and convert it to electric drive. After that you'll have a car that has half the range of a modern EV do to weight optimization.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  > pre-OBDII car If you remove the ICE you don't need to "marry"/VIN code activate the ECUs likely. Just as long as the steering lock is mechanical.
- e40 5y ago
  Why pre-OBDII?
  - jpindar 5y ago
    Yeah, OBDII is great and has nothing to do with the UI, privacy etc. issues people are trying to avoid.
- floren 5y ago
  I've got a 1985 Jeep CJ-7 sitting in a shed in another state right now. The 4-cylinder engine sucked when it was new, and 35 years of entropy have not been kind to it, especially the labyrinthine emissions control systems. But I'm holding on to it because I think it would be an absolute hoot converted to electric... plus, it's got such a small gas tank and bad gas mileage that a 150 mile electric range would be no worse.
paganel 5y ago
I found the latest model of the Suzuki Jimny the closest to what you described, that is when it comes to new cars. Unfortunately it has been withdrawn from the European market (where I live) because it doesn’t meet environmental standards, hopes are that it will be re-introduced labeled as a “utility” vehicle. Afaik it is selling like hot-cakes on the markets where it is still present (like Australia), maybe if enough future potential customers ask for it Suzuki will decide to also sell it on the US market.
- arminiusreturns 5y ago
  Speaking of Suzuki, the Samurai is ripe for a comeback in the US imho.
cmiller1 5y ago
> Other than stockpiling cars from 2010 As a car enthusiast this sounds laughably new to me. My main vehicle rolled off the assembly line in 1991. Unfortunately it's a "hobby" and a labor of love because if you're not wealthy enough to pay for a shop to handle maintenance of your classic cars then you're spending your weekends working on them.
- simondotau 5y ago
  I get the allure of older cars but personally I wouldn’t ever daily drive a car that didn’t have vaguely modern crashworthiness. To me 2010 sounds like an ideal middle ground between maximising mechanical safety and minimising the encroachment of bad software. Ideally you’d want a reasonably new safety-rated car where the entire radio can be swapped out for an aftermarket double-DIN unit.
vikingerik 5y ago
I bought a new Nissan Kicks last year (the lowest-end crossover SUV) and it seems pretty dumb. It has no internet connectivity as far as I can tell. It has a touch-screen, but it's pretty much just for the backup camera and audio controls, everything else has physical controls. It does have a computer that is involved in operating the CVT, but besides that it never gets in my way. And it does have sensors for the safety features (blind spot warning, etc) but that stays out of my way too. (The one annoying exception was when I had a bike rack on the back. I couldn't drive in reverse, the collision detection kept sensing the rack as an obstacle and slamming the brakes.) Mostly-dumb cars still exist on the lower end of the manufacturers' lines. But yeah, who knows how long that situation will last, or if you'll be able to get anything technologically dumb with premium power and handling.
- cowanon22 5y ago
  > I bought a new Nissan Kicks last year (the lowest-end crossover SUV) and it seems pretty dumb. Not sure about 2020, but 2021 has Automatic breaking, pedestrian detection, and collision detection standard. There are likely a few hundred thousand to millions lines of code in these various systems. Even "dumb" cars today have tons of software, it's just hidden since it doesn't require user input. Literally every aspect of your driving is fully computerized - braking, acceleration, engine spark plug ignition, transmission, steering, etc. The infotainment is often relatively simple compared to all of the other software running internally.
rootusrootus 5y ago
The vast, vast majority of all new cars sold today either don't have any kind of uplink to the cloud, or can have that capability easily removed (e.g. OnStar from GM). It's really only some of the EVs (the non-compliance ones like Tesla, really) that are software-heavy and blazing a new anti-privacy trail.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Don't they still record and just upload when you go to the dealer and they plug in the cable?
  - bri3d 5y ago
    There is an extremely limited amount of diagnostic data recorded by most cars (Tesla aside) - absolute limits, performance counters, and freeze-frame diagnostic data. There simply isn't much storage, and again, Tesla aside, most manufacturers don't want to have to buy high-write capable flash of the sort that could cope with constant logging. The most invasive is probably airbag blackbox data, which is stored upon deployment and not routinely uploaded besides as part of an investigation. As far as I know based on extensive reverse engineering of many modern European vehicles, no location data is routinely stored or uploaded to a dealership tool by any of them.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      Nice, thanks. Maybe I'll look into a newer car then, was holding off because of this.
neilpanchal 5y ago
Kit cars such as https://www.factoryfive.com/ https://www.factoryfive.com/. I am sure electric chassis will pop up in the future.
romanovcode 5y ago
You can always get a lada
- slim 5y ago
  +1 that car was first produced in 1977 and it's still in full production with the exact same design.
kart23 5y ago
Stockpiling used cars sounds good to me honestly. Land Cruisers are pretty bulletproof, they're regularly on the road through 300,000 miles.
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  You're late to the Land Cruiser party. Prices for FJ40 went through the roof a few years ago, then FJ60 started to climb, then even 80 and 100 series jumped in value. During the pandemic everyone wanted an overland rig and prices have really shot up in the past year. https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/land-cruiser-100-series/ https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/land-cruiser-100-series/
speedgoose 5y ago
You can buy a Dacia.
stagger87 5y ago
I just bought a 2018 Subaru Crosstrek that's surprisingly dumb. All mechanical controls and a basic infotainment system that isn't required for the car to operate. AFAIK it doesn't have any cloud capabilities and isn't connected to the internet. I imagine the latest models are the same since they look similar inside.
jacquesm 5y ago
That's more or less what I did though. I have a 2010 VW bus and a 1997 personal car. I fully expect these to last me the rest of my life.
Laarlf 5y ago
If you want a dumb car, buy used. Very old cars are dumb. And if you get the correct car you can fix it at home for cheap and barely have worse fuel economy than todays cars.

quacked 5y ago

I don't think there are any. If you got to the point where you somehow managed to source the labor, materials, and space to manufacture "dumb technology", you'd be sued into oblivion by competitors who wouldn't want you to eat into their profit margins. I think the market is huge. Imagine a company that suddenly started selling all-metal consumer appliances with minimal functionality, controlled by old-fashioned switches, buttons, and knobs, designed to be repaired. They'd be insanely popular. Of course, that lack of subscription-model pricing and the high labor costs of worthwhile designers and manufacturers would also destroy the company, but my god, a boy can dream.

mthomasmw 5y ago
Vitamix
- quacked 5y ago
  Looks great. It reminds me of my microwave, which has two dials on it and is better than every other microwave I've ever owned.
  - yurishimo 5y ago
    Now go look up the Thermomix. Apparently pretty popular in AUS/NZ but very niche in the States and Europe(?). Cool idea, but I can't imagine they have a long life if being used with any sort of regularity.
    - andredz 5y ago
      I've been using mine for many years. The only big problems I've had is that sometimes the scale doesn't work perfectly and I have to reset the weighting and that after so long the blades have been getting a little blunt; but they can be sharpened.
brundolf 5y ago
They'd be insanely popular in circles like HN. I think you have a warped perspective of what the typical buyer is enticed by.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > insanely popular in circles like HN Heck, even then I expect it would just be popular with a very small, very loud niche within HN.
  - circularfoyers 5y ago
    By loud I assume you mean the top comments, which says to me this is popular with the many not the few of the HN crowd.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      I don't think I'm willing to go that far. What constitutes 'the HN crowd'? The folks who come here and read the stories, but do not read the comments? Or just the ones who read the comments? Or only the subset of those who read the comments who actually bother to vote. Or participate with their own commentary? It's pretty easy for a small subset of individuals to appear as if they accurately represent the wider group.
jkepler 5y ago
Won't t 3D-printing metal appliances be more and more widely feasible in coming years? And, at least here in the EU, right-to-repair [1] labeling gives consumers the ability to more efficiently vote with their wallets. Its also happening in the US [2] [1] https://repair.eu/ https://repair.eu/ [2] https://fr.ifixit.com/News/8748/right-to-repair https://fr.ifixit.com/News/8748/right-to-repair
- scythe 5y ago
  Liquid steel requires enormously high temperature and magnesium/aluminium require an argon atmosphere. Titanium requires both. So unless you're going to make everything out of zinc (assuming we don't run out of zinc!), this may not be the cheap fix you're hoping for -- and zinc isn't very strong.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    There are also many types of steel that have widely varying properties. There are some (expensive) printers that print powdered metals (including steel) that is later sintered in an oven. They're certainly not large enough to make a car, and even if they were the properties of the material are likely not ideal, and the process would be prohibitively expensive.
  - the__alchemist 5y ago
    What do you think about the possibility of smaller/cheaper/easier 5-axis mills?
covidthrow 5y ago
The key is to hunt for commercial-grade appliances. In some cases, they can be found and offer similar form factors to consumer devices, and in others you may be out of luck. Commercial kitchen appliances, washers/dryers, and flat panel displays can be sourced to your expectations. Just prepare to spend 1.5-3x as much right out of the gate.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Note that commercial-grade appliances may have unexpected side-effects. I have a speed queen commercial coin-op washer and it's highly reliable and easy to work on, but you can't do anything but a full cycle on it.
- fock 5y ago
  the problem is that most of these are horrendously oversized for private use. So I would like to have a commercial agitator to create yeast dough; these aren't even that expensive for their small series and local production - compared to e.g. kitchen-aid stuff -, but I both don't have the space/floor to put down a 4sqft/1000 pound appliance and I certainly don't need a 5 gallon bowl for my dough... I'm sure you could create and sell a home-sized variant of these, but yeah, distribution won't be easy. I have to admit though that I sometimes dream of setting up a company, which just goes through all these relatively low-tech, electromechanical things and cyclically produces these. Problem is: it's capital intensive, low-margin, low-growth and requires you to keep people around. At this point you've lost everyone nowadays even if it is sustainable (nothing goes to waste when making these repairable) and keeps skills alive (which both the US and EU are paying extreme prices for through the military acquisition procedures). In this vein I also suspect that most people could easily afford to get their whole furniture sourced in a "raw wood" edition (to be painted/oiled) from local woodworking shops, as the price difference is virtually nonexistent (built a bed with the help of friendly non-CNC-shops: was 12h of work, which clocks in at maybe 900USD. Material was 300.). If I go to a non-ikea, but industrial/imported furniture-store, similar quality would have cost me ~4000USD. But of course, a healthy ecosystem of woodworkers and designers would not concentrate wealth.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

yardie 5y ago

EVs are quite simply and there has been a small, but growing base of users using AC induction motors on sailboats. I imagine you're going to need a pre-OBDII car and some mechanical skills and convert it to electric drive. After that you'll have a car that has half the range of a modern EV do to weight optimization.

rightbyte 5y ago
> pre-OBDII car If you remove the ICE you don't need to "marry"/VIN code activate the ECUs likely. Just as long as the steering lock is mechanical.
e40 5y ago
Why pre-OBDII?
- jpindar 5y ago
  Yeah, OBDII is great and has nothing to do with the UI, privacy etc. issues people are trying to avoid.
floren 5y ago
I've got a 1985 Jeep CJ-7 sitting in a shed in another state right now. The 4-cylinder engine sucked when it was new, and 35 years of entropy have not been kind to it, especially the labyrinthine emissions control systems. But I'm holding on to it because I think it would be an absolute hoot converted to electric... plus, it's got such a small gas tank and bad gas mileage that a 150 mile electric range would be no worse.

paganel 5y ago

I found the latest model of the Suzuki Jimny the closest to what you described, that is when it comes to new cars. Unfortunately it has been withdrawn from the European market (where I live) because it doesn’t meet environmental standards, hopes are that it will be re-introduced labeled as a “utility” vehicle. Afaik it is selling like hot-cakes on the markets where it is still present (like Australia), maybe if enough future potential customers ask for it Suzuki will decide to also sell it on the US market.

arminiusreturns 5y ago
Speaking of Suzuki, the Samurai is ripe for a comeback in the US imho.

cmiller1 5y ago

> Other than stockpiling cars from 2010 As a car enthusiast this sounds laughably new to me. My main vehicle rolled off the assembly line in 1991. Unfortunately it's a "hobby" and a labor of love because if you're not wealthy enough to pay for a shop to handle maintenance of your classic cars then you're spending your weekends working on them.

simondotau 5y ago
I get the allure of older cars but personally I wouldn’t ever daily drive a car that didn’t have vaguely modern crashworthiness. To me 2010 sounds like an ideal middle ground between maximising mechanical safety and minimising the encroachment of bad software. Ideally you’d want a reasonably new safety-rated car where the entire radio can be swapped out for an aftermarket double-DIN unit.

vikingerik 5y ago

I bought a new Nissan Kicks last year (the lowest-end crossover SUV) and it seems pretty dumb. It has no internet connectivity as far as I can tell. It has a touch-screen, but it's pretty much just for the backup camera and audio controls, everything else has physical controls. It does have a computer that is involved in operating the CVT, but besides that it never gets in my way. And it does have sensors for the safety features (blind spot warning, etc) but that stays out of my way too. (The one annoying exception was when I had a bike rack on the back. I couldn't drive in reverse, the collision detection kept sensing the rack as an obstacle and slamming the brakes.) Mostly-dumb cars still exist on the lower end of the manufacturers' lines. But yeah, who knows how long that situation will last, or if you'll be able to get anything technologically dumb with premium power and handling.

cowanon22 5y ago
> I bought a new Nissan Kicks last year (the lowest-end crossover SUV) and it seems pretty dumb. Not sure about 2020, but 2021 has Automatic breaking, pedestrian detection, and collision detection standard. There are likely a few hundred thousand to millions lines of code in these various systems. Even "dumb" cars today have tons of software, it's just hidden since it doesn't require user input. Literally every aspect of your driving is fully computerized - braking, acceleration, engine spark plug ignition, transmission, steering, etc. The infotainment is often relatively simple compared to all of the other software running internally.

rootusrootus 5y ago

The vast, vast majority of all new cars sold today either don't have any kind of uplink to the cloud, or can have that capability easily removed (e.g. OnStar from GM). It's really only some of the EVs (the non-compliance ones like Tesla, really) that are software-heavy and blazing a new anti-privacy trail.

mixmastamyk 5y ago
Don't they still record and just upload when you go to the dealer and they plug in the cable?
- bri3d 5y ago
  There is an extremely limited amount of diagnostic data recorded by most cars (Tesla aside) - absolute limits, performance counters, and freeze-frame diagnostic data. There simply isn't much storage, and again, Tesla aside, most manufacturers don't want to have to buy high-write capable flash of the sort that could cope with constant logging. The most invasive is probably airbag blackbox data, which is stored upon deployment and not routinely uploaded besides as part of an investigation. As far as I know based on extensive reverse engineering of many modern European vehicles, no location data is routinely stored or uploaded to a dealership tool by any of them.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Nice, thanks. Maybe I'll look into a newer car then, was holding off because of this.

neilpanchal 5y ago

Kit cars such as https://www.factoryfive.com/ https://www.factoryfive.com/. I am sure electric chassis will pop up in the future.

romanovcode 5y ago

You can always get a lada

slim 5y ago
+1 that car was first produced in 1977 and it's still in full production with the exact same design.

kart23 5y ago

Stockpiling used cars sounds good to me honestly. Land Cruisers are pretty bulletproof, they're regularly on the road through 300,000 miles.

theluketaylor 5y ago
You're late to the Land Cruiser party. Prices for FJ40 went through the roof a few years ago, then FJ60 started to climb, then even 80 and 100 series jumped in value. During the pandemic everyone wanted an overland rig and prices have really shot up in the past year. https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/land-cruiser-100-series/ https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/land-cruiser-100-series/

speedgoose 5y ago

You can buy a Dacia.

stagger87 5y ago

I just bought a 2018 Subaru Crosstrek that's surprisingly dumb. All mechanical controls and a basic infotainment system that isn't required for the car to operate. AFAIK it doesn't have any cloud capabilities and isn't connected to the internet. I imagine the latest models are the same since they look similar inside.

jacquesm 5y ago

That's more or less what I did though. I have a 2010 VW bus and a 1997 personal car. I fully expect these to last me the rest of my life.

Laarlf 5y ago

If you want a dumb car, buy used. Very old cars are dumb. And if you get the correct car you can fix it at home for cheap and barely have worse fuel economy than todays cars.