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> but the sum total of what we know about intelligence says it probably isn't Source? I am not aware of any other known process in the universe that could not

by anyfoo 5y ago

> but the sum total of what we know about intelligence says it probably isn't Source? I am not aware of any other known process in the universe that could not be simulated by a Turing machine.

otabdeveloper4 5y ago
Assuming that the universe can be simulated by a Turing machine is a strong and weird claim that needs to be defended, not the other way around. We know that Turing machines are very limited things and that the computational processes they carry out also very limited in applicability. What's the evidence that the universe is more limited that a Turing machine? Just the fact that we can imagine things that can't be computed by a Turing machine should clue you in that it's probably otherwise.
- anyfoo 5y ago
  > We know that Turing machines are very limited things and that the computational processes they carry out also very limited in applicability. Again, source? Do you know of anything that is able to perform a computation that a Turing machine cannot? > Just the fact that we can imagine things that can't be computed by a Turing machine should clue you in that it's probably otherwise. Like what? Uncomputable numbers like Chaitin's constant? We can "imagine" them by stating their definition, but we cannot compute them. Or do you have something else specific in mind?
  - gammalost 5y ago
    >Like what? The halting problem is (I think?) the standard example. Here's a short video on it https://youtu.be/macM_MtS_w4 https://youtu.be/macM_MtS_w4
    - anyfoo 5y ago
      Chaitin's constant is closely tied to the halting problem: Each bit essentially tells you if a program (in the particular order the programs are listed in the constant) halts or not. Computing every bit in there would mean knowing for every program if it halts or not, which would solve the halting problem, which we can prove is impossible. So we cannot compute that constant.
  - otabdeveloper4 5y ago
    > Do you know of anything that is able to perform a computation that a Turing machine cannot? That's a circular argument, because "computation" is literally defined as "something that can be computed by a Turing machine". That said, the first month of the first year of a CS education is "here's these problems that can't be solved by a Turing machine, mind=blown". (At least where I studied CS, that is.)
mensetmanusman 5y ago
A Turing machine needs a discrete clock cycle, if intelligence requires quantum mechanics that has entanglement through time, that would be one example.

by anyfoo 5y ago

> but the sum total of what we know about intelligence says it probably isn't Source? I am not aware of any other known process in the universe that could not be simulated by a Turing machine.

otabdeveloper4 5y ago

Assuming that the universe can be simulated by a Turing machine is a strong and weird claim that needs to be defended, not the other way around. We know that Turing machines are very limited things and that the computational processes they carry out also very limited in applicability. What's the evidence that the universe is more limited that a Turing machine? Just the fact that we can imagine things that can't be computed by a Turing machine should clue you in that it's probably otherwise.

anyfoo 5y ago
> We know that Turing machines are very limited things and that the computational processes they carry out also very limited in applicability. Again, source? Do you know of anything that is able to perform a computation that a Turing machine cannot? > Just the fact that we can imagine things that can't be computed by a Turing machine should clue you in that it's probably otherwise. Like what? Uncomputable numbers like Chaitin's constant? We can "imagine" them by stating their definition, but we cannot compute them. Or do you have something else specific in mind?
- gammalost 5y ago
  >Like what? The halting problem is (I think?) the standard example. Here's a short video on it https://youtu.be/macM_MtS_w4 https://youtu.be/macM_MtS_w4
  - anyfoo 5y ago
    Chaitin's constant is closely tied to the halting problem: Each bit essentially tells you if a program (in the particular order the programs are listed in the constant) halts or not. Computing every bit in there would mean knowing for every program if it halts or not, which would solve the halting problem, which we can prove is impossible. So we cannot compute that constant.
- otabdeveloper4 5y ago
  > Do you know of anything that is able to perform a computation that a Turing machine cannot? That's a circular argument, because "computation" is literally defined as "something that can be computed by a Turing machine". That said, the first month of the first year of a CS education is "here's these problems that can't be solved by a Turing machine, mind=blown". (At least where I studied CS, that is.)

mensetmanusman 5y ago

A Turing machine needs a discrete clock cycle, if intelligence requires quantum mechanics that has entanglement through time, that would be one example.