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I think you’ve gone off to an extreme view. There’s a huge middle ground between “oh, it uses electricity? Yeah you want to speak to the developers if that’s no

• adrianN 5y ago
  It of course depends on the complexity of your product. For sufficiently simple things, a single developer can handle everything themselves. But it doesn't take much to reach a point where a single developer doesn't even understand all the software, let alone all the infrastructure around it. Sysadmining is hard, it's a tall order to expect someone you hired because they where good at inverting binary trees to be a competent sysadmin.
  • Aissen 5y ago
    It seems you already know how hard ops can be, so you might already know that a little development effort can often go a long way into alleviating the ops tasks, which is a win for everyone. I'm not sure every developer knows, or understands. Yes, you could follow a rule book, or a deployment framework, but you'll be better at what you do if know why you do it.
    • adrianN 5y ago
      Imo, a good way to teach developers how they can help other roles is by having a shadow program where developers work together with a different specialized role for a couple of days but don't have to carry the responsibility. That improves cross team communication a lot, while being much less stressful for your employees.
    • lmm 5y ago
      I think it's a big win if developers and operators are the same team - sit next to each other, do the same teambuilding exercises, have responsibility for the same set of products, pair-program together where appropriate. Slice your teams vertically rather than horizontally. I'm not convinced that it's worth going all the way to having every developer be an operator and vice versa.
      • pjmlp 5y ago
        Having weared both hats multiple time, Dev and Ops, I think this is the right approach.
  • andrewstuart2 5y ago
    As a sysadmin who became a developer, I don't think I agree that it needs to be hard to operate software these days. We have tools that simplify, standardize, and aggregate a lot of the things that used to make systems administration much more complicated, such that operating the software you wrote very rarely actually requires a full set of systems administration knowledge. With good platforms, it's absolutely feasible to operate your software without needing the full knowledge of a sysadmin.
    • pm90 5y ago
      It really depends on what you’re working with. For instance, using modern tools and frameworks from the get go does make operating much easier. But if you’re stuck with an older tool chain and can’t get the org to commit to refactoring it then you unfortunately either have to pay the operational cost or invent something that makes ops better. Not disagreeing with you but want to point out that it’s not straightforward and often requires much work to make ops easier depending on your situation.
• quickthrower2 5y ago
  The joke at one place I worked was developers were good at dealing with all devices. Except the phones!