4 ms·

This is of course the classic libertarian default counter argument. Zoom out enough and reduce government until the situation is shaken up so that the original

This is of course the classic libertarian default counter argument. Zoom out enough and reduce government until the situation is shaken up so that the original discussed problem can be arguably speculated to be less relevant in the brave new world. Abracadara, the original problem was too much government.

ridaj 5y ago
Yes. There's a lot of this on HN it seems. Of course the argument doesn't hold up to evidence... Places like Somalia, Haiti, Yemen, etc. are great concrete case studies to understand what really happens in places with minimal or non-existent governments. The evidence doesn't exactly point towards major advancement in workers' causes.
- kortilla 5y ago
  Oh no, you’re straw man of libertarian ideals has proven easy to defeat! Libertarians don’t want non-existent governments as the highest priority. The key priority is using markets to determine prices and a critical part of that is being able to enforce property rights. A big government focused on enforcing those rights is completely supported by libertarians.
  - ridaj 5y ago
    Well sure but that's not an argument in favor of libertarianism as an answer to the dangerous working conditions for ship crew either. A government that is focused on property rights, just like the flags of convenience under which most maritime shipping takes place, doesn't care much about labor regulations or immigration in the first place. In a way, international waters are already the "libertarian state".
    - eru 5y ago
      In some sense, yes. See https://www.econlib.org/archives/2005/07/the_economics_a.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2005/07/the_economics_a.htm... and https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/05/cruise_ships_an.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/05/cruise_ships_an.htm... I was suggesting that if you want to help workers, you need to give them access to better outside options.
- eru 5y ago
  It used to be called Startup News. Given those pro-capitalist beginnings, the site has drifted relentlessly leftwards over time.

ridaj 5y ago

Yes. There's a lot of this on HN it seems. Of course the argument doesn't hold up to evidence... Places like Somalia, Haiti, Yemen, etc. are great concrete case studies to understand what really happens in places with minimal or non-existent governments. The evidence doesn't exactly point towards major advancement in workers' causes.

kortilla 5y ago
Oh no, you’re straw man of libertarian ideals has proven easy to defeat! Libertarians don’t want non-existent governments as the highest priority. The key priority is using markets to determine prices and a critical part of that is being able to enforce property rights. A big government focused on enforcing those rights is completely supported by libertarians.
- ridaj 5y ago
  Well sure but that's not an argument in favor of libertarianism as an answer to the dangerous working conditions for ship crew either. A government that is focused on property rights, just like the flags of convenience under which most maritime shipping takes place, doesn't care much about labor regulations or immigration in the first place. In a way, international waters are already the "libertarian state".
  - eru 5y ago
    In some sense, yes. See https://www.econlib.org/archives/2005/07/the_economics_a.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2005/07/the_economics_a.htm... and https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/05/cruise_ships_an.html https://www.econlib.org/archives/2017/05/cruise_ships_an.htm... I was suggesting that if you want to help workers, you need to give them access to better outside options.
eru 5y ago
It used to be called Startup News. Given those pro-capitalist beginnings, the site has drifted relentlessly leftwards over time.