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Things like infinite scroll and autoplay should come with an option to turn them off and I think that’s well presented. Those are kind of dark patterns after Al

Things like infinite scroll and autoplay should come with an option to turn them off and I think that’s well presented. Those are kind of dark patterns after All. Though, Apple probably isn’t in the position to enforce that; we unfortunately need to live with Jailbreak tweaks for them. But the rest of the post feels so off. Constantly nagging yourself to close social media? Reminding yourself that social media is a waste of time by asking whether the time is “well spent”? No thanks. These are just dark patterns but flipped to the other side. I want control over what I do, not a random program deciding what I should do. I also have never found Screen Time restrictions to be effective; either I unlock the restrictions by myself, or I just find other ways to waste the time. The reason people waste so much time with social media, I think, is because they simply don’t have anything else to do, or they’re not motivated enough to do what they should do.

retreatguru 5y ago
What if the reminders could be more personalized or something that you write to your future self. For example: "Are you scrolling on the couch again amigo?, stop and hang out with your family!"
- warkdarrior 5y ago
  Even better, Facebook could provide these reminders and prompts, based on the information they collected by tracking your location and web browsing.
sneak 5y ago
Infinite scroll is not a dark pattern. Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. Infinite scroll just gives people more of what they want. Turns out, most people, most of the time, want the gorbage.
- donkeyd 5y ago
  Alcoholics want booze, but many of them wake up every day thinking today they won't drink anything, but they still do. Infinite scroll is a dark pattern in the way it gives you something your addicted brain wants, and therefore you think you might want, but it's actually just a way for them to get more money. Personal anecdote: I hardly read more than the front page on HN, even though I consider HN one of the least 'time wasted' sites I use, because I usually learn a lot because of it. On Reddit I just keep scrolling even though I often consider it wasted time in hindsight. I don't want HN to get infinite scroll and I deleted the Reddit app from my phone.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sneak 5y ago
    > Infinite scroll is a dark pattern in the way it gives you something your addicted brain wants, and therefore you think you might want, but it's actually just a way for them to get more money. Dark patterns are particular UI patterns that are of a certain objective type regardless of whether or not the user is an addict. Infinite scroll is not in the list. Slot machines are addictive and are designed to get people to play as much and as long as possible, but they assiduously avoid dark patterns because people will avoid machines that pull that sort of bullshit and choose ones that don't.
    - Nevermark 5y ago
      I think dark patterns include patterns designed to create addiction. I imagine a tremendous amount of slot machine design is about creating addiction. The line between enjoyment and addiction is certainly not clear, or the same for everyone. But anything strongly designed to repeatedly pull you into repetitive behavior that you reliably find wasteful or harmful afterwards, is dark.
    - donkeyd 5y ago
      > Infinite scroll is not on the list. I you want a discussion of semantics then... Wikipedia defines dark patterns as: "A dark pattern is a user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things". Infinite scroll in many cases obviously fits this category as it tricks people into spending more time in an app. Fast company actually calls it the most prevalent dark pattern in this article: https://www.fastcompany.com/90369183/deceptive-design-tricks-and-dark-patterns-that-steer-your-clicks https://www.fastcompany.com/90369183/deceptive-design-tricks... Also, implying that slot machines don't apply dark patterns is incredibly naive. I'm pretty sure they do everything to make it seem like they don't. But even using a plastic card in stead of cash can be considered a dark pattern, because it disconnects you from the intrinsic form and it just because a number on a screen, causing it to lose its value while playing.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  > Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. Well, yes - normally you are scrolling to the bottom of the page. And when you reach the bottom, you stop, or you need to explicitly click "Next". But with infinite scroll, there is no bottom. You never reach a final or semi-final point. It's designed to maximize your time spent on the website/app, not for your well-being or helping you achieve your original aim - which was to absorb a limited set of information, not scrolling mindlessly forever.
  - welearnednothng 5y ago
    But it's only a dark pattern in the right (wrong?) context, no? For instance, my webmail has infinite scroll and it's damn convenient. Yet, I never find myself mindlessly scrolling through my mail. It doesn't increase the time I spend on the site... quite the opposite. Likewise, I swear Google was playing with infinite scroll in their search results recently, where I didn't have to hit next to see the next page of results. Same result for me - it was convenient and I didn't find myself spending more time looking for/at search results. But when the context is addictive content, infinite scroll is always there to spoon feed you one more helping. More often than not, infinite scroll isn't actually the UX pattern you're looking for. But on occasion, it does make sense. However, when combined with insidious content, a dark pattern it does become.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Infinite scroll is not a dark pattern. Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. This comment doesn't deserve to be downvoted. I came to this thread holding this exact view. The ensuing discussion changed my mind. It's honestly asked and respectfully answered, the stuff this community is made of.
powerlogic31 5y ago
Yeah this is cool as an option. but don't make it as a default. A lot of people actually love the automatic feed. Of course they're not here on HN reading stuffs. So you won't know what actual majority of user want.
deanclatworthy 5y ago
> I want control over what I do, not a random program deciding what I should do. So ask the user once if they want to be reminded? You might not feel like social media is a toxic influence over your life but many people do.
- martin-adams 5y ago
  I think what they are saying is to remove the addiction, not ask if someone want to be reminded to wake up from the addiction. The question for me comes down to, is there such a thing as social media without the addiction, where the financial incentives to the company aren’t tied to and engagement and behaviour. I’d like to think that’s possible.
- underwater 5y ago
  Some people feel like television, and phones in general, are bad influences. Should Apple build in reminders for their first party products, too. A popup telling you that talking on the phone for three hours a day is bad for you, or that encourages you to not binge on that TV series?
  - Ar-Curunir 5y ago
    Those things all exist…
serf 5y ago
> Those are kind of dark patterns after Al I think the application should be judged, not the method necessarily. Example : I have added/used extensions built to allow certain websites (google search, for example) to use infinite scrolling. I never voluntarily added other 'dark patterns' to my interfaces, thus I think the way such a mechanism is applied is a major factor as to whether or not it's abusive.
beagle3 5y ago
ScreenTime is very useful when you have young kids, are working at home due to Corona, and want to give them a limited time of Among Us / TV. I had never even considered it as a self-care system - but now that I do think about it, I agree with you. I have my Mac announce the time every hour, which is very useful to make sure I don’t lose track of time - no matter what it is I’m doing
Invictus0 5y ago
What if the user chooses to turn on the time well spent feature? Then it would not be a dark pattern but just user choice.
Dah00n 5y ago
>Constantly nagging yourself to close social media? Reminding yourself that social media is a waste of time by asking whether the time is “well spent”? It's a business opportunity for Apple to be able to judge what gets graded as good, bad or a waste of time. That's what this is about in my opinion.

retreatguru 5y ago

What if the reminders could be more personalized or something that you write to your future self. For example: "Are you scrolling on the couch again amigo?, stop and hang out with your family!"

warkdarrior 5y ago
Even better, Facebook could provide these reminders and prompts, based on the information they collected by tracking your location and web browsing.

sneak 5y ago

Infinite scroll is not a dark pattern. Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. Infinite scroll just gives people more of what they want. Turns out, most people, most of the time, want the gorbage.

donkeyd 5y ago
Alcoholics want booze, but many of them wake up every day thinking today they won't drink anything, but they still do. Infinite scroll is a dark pattern in the way it gives you something your addicted brain wants, and therefore you think you might want, but it's actually just a way for them to get more money. Personal anecdote: I hardly read more than the front page on HN, even though I consider HN one of the least 'time wasted' sites I use, because I usually learn a lot because of it. On Reddit I just keep scrolling even though I often consider it wasted time in hindsight. I don't want HN to get infinite scroll and I deleted the Reddit app from my phone.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sneak 5y ago
  > Infinite scroll is a dark pattern in the way it gives you something your addicted brain wants, and therefore you think you might want, but it's actually just a way for them to get more money. Dark patterns are particular UI patterns that are of a certain objective type regardless of whether or not the user is an addict. Infinite scroll is not in the list. Slot machines are addictive and are designed to get people to play as much and as long as possible, but they assiduously avoid dark patterns because people will avoid machines that pull that sort of bullshit and choose ones that don't.
  - Nevermark 5y ago
    I think dark patterns include patterns designed to create addiction. I imagine a tremendous amount of slot machine design is about creating addiction. The line between enjoyment and addiction is certainly not clear, or the same for everyone. But anything strongly designed to repeatedly pull you into repetitive behavior that you reliably find wasteful or harmful afterwards, is dark.
  - donkeyd 5y ago
    > Infinite scroll is not on the list. I you want a discussion of semantics then... Wikipedia defines dark patterns as: "A dark pattern is a user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things". Infinite scroll in many cases obviously fits this category as it tricks people into spending more time in an app. Fast company actually calls it the most prevalent dark pattern in this article: https://www.fastcompany.com/90369183/deceptive-design-tricks-and-dark-patterns-that-steer-your-clicks https://www.fastcompany.com/90369183/deceptive-design-tricks... Also, implying that slot machines don't apply dark patterns is incredibly naive. I'm pretty sure they do everything to make it seem like they don't. But even using a plastic card in stead of cash can be considered a dark pattern, because it disconnects you from the intrinsic form and it just because a number on a screen, causing it to lose its value while playing.
dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
> Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. Well, yes - normally you are scrolling to the bottom of the page. And when you reach the bottom, you stop, or you need to explicitly click "Next". But with infinite scroll, there is no bottom. You never reach a final or semi-final point. It's designed to maximize your time spent on the website/app, not for your well-being or helping you achieve your original aim - which was to absorb a limited set of information, not scrolling mindlessly forever.
- welearnednothng 5y ago
  But it's only a dark pattern in the right (wrong?) context, no? For instance, my webmail has infinite scroll and it's damn convenient. Yet, I never find myself mindlessly scrolling through my mail. It doesn't increase the time I spend on the site... quite the opposite. Likewise, I swear Google was playing with infinite scroll in their search results recently, where I didn't have to hit next to see the next page of results. Same result for me - it was convenient and I didn't find myself spending more time looking for/at search results. But when the context is addictive content, infinite scroll is always there to spoon feed you one more helping. More often than not, infinite scroll isn't actually the UX pattern you're looking for. But on occasion, it does make sense. However, when combined with insidious content, a dark pattern it does become.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Infinite scroll is not a dark pattern. Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. This comment doesn't deserve to be downvoted. I came to this thread holding this exact view. The ensuing discussion changed my mind. It's honestly asked and respectfully answered, the stuff this community is made of.

powerlogic31 5y ago

Yeah this is cool as an option. but don't make it as a default. A lot of people actually love the automatic feed. Of course they're not here on HN reading stuffs. So you won't know what actual majority of user want.

deanclatworthy 5y ago

> I want control over what I do, not a random program deciding what I should do. So ask the user once if they want to be reminded? You might not feel like social media is a toxic influence over your life but many people do.

martin-adams 5y ago
I think what they are saying is to remove the addiction, not ask if someone want to be reminded to wake up from the addiction. The question for me comes down to, is there such a thing as social media without the addiction, where the financial incentives to the company aren’t tied to and engagement and behaviour. I’d like to think that’s possible.
underwater 5y ago
Some people feel like television, and phones in general, are bad influences. Should Apple build in reminders for their first party products, too. A popup telling you that talking on the phone for three hours a day is bad for you, or that encourages you to not binge on that TV series?
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  Those things all exist…

serf 5y ago

> Those are kind of dark patterns after Al I think the application should be judged, not the method necessarily. Example : I have added/used extensions built to allow certain websites (google search, for example) to use infinite scrolling. I never voluntarily added other 'dark patterns' to my interfaces, thus I think the way such a mechanism is applied is a major factor as to whether or not it's abusive.

beagle3 5y ago

ScreenTime is very useful when you have young kids, are working at home due to Corona, and want to give them a limited time of Among Us / TV. I had never even considered it as a self-care system - but now that I do think about it, I agree with you. I have my Mac announce the time every hour, which is very useful to make sure I don’t lose track of time - no matter what it is I’m doing

Invictus0 5y ago

What if the user chooses to turn on the time well spent feature? Then it would not be a dark pattern but just user choice.

Dah00n 5y ago

>Constantly nagging yourself to close social media? Reminding yourself that social media is a waste of time by asking whether the time is “well spent”? It's a business opportunity for Apple to be able to judge what gets graded as good, bad or a waste of time. That's what this is about in my opinion.