5 ms·

Free market 101: charge passengers based on weight?

rhodozelia 5y ago
How much of the cost of a flight is fuel? What percentage of the mass being moved is passengers and their luggage be freight and the plane and fuel itself?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > How much of the cost of a flight is fuel? Better question: what fraction of airline's margins could one explain with the variation of passengers' weights? Airlines' pre-tax margins are low [1]. Almost any factor, meaningless or meaningful, will look tiny relative to revenues or costs. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/225856/ebit-margin-of-commercial-airlines-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/225856/ebit-margin-of-co...
- ddeck 5y ago
  >How much of the cost of a flight is fuel? In terms of flight operating costs (FOC) per hour, about 16-36% according to the numbers for a 737-500 across for Continental/United/Southwest a few years ago. It's very dependent on utilization. Fixed ownership (i.e. depreciation/leasing) costs start to dominate at low utilization rates. Boeing 737‐500 FOC per block hour (~2017): Crew Fuel Maint. Ownership Hrs/day Continental $510 $430(19%) $ 651 $698 3.9 United $927 $487(16%) $1048 $510 4.3 Southwest $388 $537(36%) $ 251 $350 8.2 https://www.icao.int/mid/documents/2017/aviation%20data%20and%20analysis%20seminar/ppt3%20-%20airlines%20operating%20costs%20and%20productivity.pdf https://www.icao.int/mid/documents/2017/aviation%20data%20an...
- WalterBright 5y ago
  When I worked on the 757, it was 45%. The whole justification for the 757 was lower fuel burn due to a new wing design and new engines. The same for the 737MAX.
- t0mas88 5y ago
  Mid sized airliner roughly 90,000 lbs for the plane and equipment and 160 to 170,000 or so maximum take off weight depending on the variant. So a bit over half the weight is the plane itself the rest is fuel + people/freight.
  - rhodozelia 5y ago
    A 777-300 has a maximum take off weight of 660,000 lbs of which 312,000lbs can be fuel. So an extra 100 lbs on every passenger is a drop in the bucket! https://courses.washington.edu/ie337/Boeing%20Tour%20Facts.pdf https://courses.washington.edu/ie337/Boeing%20Tour%20Facts.p...
    - manwe150 5y ago
      100 lbs * 500 passengers is 50k pounds or about 10% of the max takeoff weight quoted there. Those numbers seem likely to be over-estimates, but that seems not inconsequential? Edit: the plane holds 328-550 depending on seat configuration per the above link. I went with the upper end of that range per consideration of the “safety considerations” indicating it is the upper end of that range that is being reconsidered.
      - rhodozelia 5y ago
        A 777-300 holds 388 passengers, so 39,000 lbs extra would be significant. Is the average American 100 lbs heavier than the average person from the rest of the world? Probably nowhere near that.
        gield 5y ago
        22 kg (48.6 lbs) according to [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight
    - t0mas88 5y ago
      A 777 is not a mide sized airliner, wide body aircraft for long haul have very different calculations because their flight can easily be over 12 hours long. The problem case for weight are the regional jets (E190 etc) and to a lesser degree the 737/A320 family. Those tend to be weight limited enough that you need to offload passengers or baggage if it's too warm outside.
changoplatanero 5y ago
Give free haircuts before long haul flights?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I cannot imagine hair weighs enough to offset expenses of cutting it.
  - austhrow743 5y ago
    Free pre flight enema and sauna.
    - King-Aaron 5y ago
      In-flight liposuction
      - pauljurczak 5y ago
        Liposuction using low pressure outside the cabin.
- soheil 5y ago
  Free laxatives might be more effective.
soheil 5y ago
This should reduce ticket costs for fit people, which may be an incentive for some to live a healthier lifestyle.
- cm2187 5y ago
  Not all weight is fat. If you are 1.90m tall man and naturally big, you can easily weight twice as much than a 1.55 woman even if you are fit. How are you going to account for natural weight vs being overweight. Even BMI is very crude.
  - soheil 5y ago
    I said some people not all could benefit from a healthier lifestyle which is caused by losing fat, how is this controversial?
    - cm2187 5y ago
      How you measure that at the gate
      - hulitu 5y ago
        They will find a way. Especcialy if they can charge extra.
      - cauliflower2718 5y ago
        As a person who has done weight cuts for weigh-ins, I imagine weighing in at the gate leads to hungry, dehydrated people who get weighed and then immediately eat and re-hydrate. I'm not sure plan bathrooms are suited to the consequences of that.
        soheil 5y ago
        Some people may suffer by their own actions, but I think a larger number of people may just get into the habit of living a healthier lifestyle specially if they fly a lot to make this worthwhile. Sort of like making wearing seatbelts mandatory, it adds years to your life, while making many uncomfortable an extra bit every time they drive. The weighing could be done at the end of the flight.
mannerheim 5y ago
Some airlines make people who can't fit into a single seat buy two tickets.
- soheil 5y ago
  Which airlines? Any in the US?
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    Pretty sure all of them do. Here is United's policy: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/extra-seating.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/ex...
    - soheil 5y ago
      Interesting how nowhere in there it mentions the words overweight or fat.
      - mannerheim 5y ago
        That would be a rather rude way of putting things; generally you want to avoid insulting your customers.
        hulitu 5y ago
        But you want to use any aspect of them to rip them off. Hello Sir, unfortunately we do have small seats so you will have to book also another free seat in the back of the plane and the seat next to it and because you need to seat down also the 2 seats in front of you. Thank for flying XXX Airlanes.
        542354234235 5y ago
        Anyone could choose to pay to fly in big roomy seats. It’s called business and first class. People do not want to do that, which is why people not only keep buying tickets in economy, but buy tickets on budget airlines that are even more cramped, less comfortable, and have less amenities. You are renting space on the plane for the duration of your trip. If you want more space, you are free to purchase it. If you deliberately chose to purchase a seat you know does not fit your needs, then attempt to steal space from the person next to you, then you are the bad guy. Not the airline. If you think you deserve to be gifted free additional space you did not pay for, then you are the bad guy.
chewz 5y ago
Better charge per BMI https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmi...
- dagw 5y ago
  BMI seems irrelevant in this case. You're not charging people based on if they are at a healthy weight or not(1). Either you are charging extra because more weight = more fuel. In which case 250 lbs is 250 lbs and it doesn't matter if you're 5'2' or 6'10. Or you are charging extra because you are taking up two seats, in which case it again doesn't matter how tall or heavy you are, only how wide you are. (1) Yes I know link between a 'normal' BMI and health is complicated.

How much of the cost of a flight is fuel? What percentage of the mass being moved is passengers and their luggage be freight and the plane and fuel itself?

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> How much of the cost of a flight is fuel? Better question: what fraction of airline's margins could one explain with the variation of passengers' weights? Airlines' pre-tax margins are low [1]. Almost any factor, meaningless or meaningful, will look tiny relative to revenues or costs. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/225856/ebit-margin-of-commercial-airlines-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/225856/ebit-margin-of-co...
ddeck 5y ago
>How much of the cost of a flight is fuel? In terms of flight operating costs (FOC) per hour, about 16-36% according to the numbers for a 737-500 across for Continental/United/Southwest a few years ago. It's very dependent on utilization. Fixed ownership (i.e. depreciation/leasing) costs start to dominate at low utilization rates. Boeing 737‐500 FOC per block hour (~2017): Crew Fuel Maint. Ownership Hrs/day Continental $510 $430(19%) $ 651 $698 3.9 United $927 $487(16%) $1048 $510 4.3 Southwest $388 $537(36%) $ 251 $350 8.2 https://www.icao.int/mid/documents/2017/aviation%20data%20and%20analysis%20seminar/ppt3%20-%20airlines%20operating%20costs%20and%20productivity.pdf https://www.icao.int/mid/documents/2017/aviation%20data%20an...
WalterBright 5y ago
When I worked on the 757, it was 45%. The whole justification for the 757 was lower fuel burn due to a new wing design and new engines. The same for the 737MAX.
t0mas88 5y ago
Mid sized airliner roughly 90,000 lbs for the plane and equipment and 160 to 170,000 or so maximum take off weight depending on the variant. So a bit over half the weight is the plane itself the rest is fuel + people/freight.
- rhodozelia 5y ago
  A 777-300 has a maximum take off weight of 660,000 lbs of which 312,000lbs can be fuel. So an extra 100 lbs on every passenger is a drop in the bucket! https://courses.washington.edu/ie337/Boeing%20Tour%20Facts.pdf https://courses.washington.edu/ie337/Boeing%20Tour%20Facts.p...
  - manwe150 5y ago
    100 lbs * 500 passengers is 50k pounds or about 10% of the max takeoff weight quoted there. Those numbers seem likely to be over-estimates, but that seems not inconsequential? Edit: the plane holds 328-550 depending on seat configuration per the above link. I went with the upper end of that range per consideration of the “safety considerations” indicating it is the upper end of that range that is being reconsidered.
    - rhodozelia 5y ago
      A 777-300 holds 388 passengers, so 39,000 lbs extra would be significant. Is the average American 100 lbs heavier than the average person from the rest of the world? Probably nowhere near that.
      - gield 5y ago
        22 kg (48.6 lbs) according to [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    A 777 is not a mide sized airliner, wide body aircraft for long haul have very different calculations because their flight can easily be over 12 hours long. The problem case for weight are the regional jets (E190 etc) and to a lesser degree the 737/A320 family. Those tend to be weight limited enough that you need to offload passengers or baggage if it's too warm outside.

changoplatanero 5y ago

Give free haircuts before long haul flights?

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I cannot imagine hair weighs enough to offset expenses of cutting it.
- austhrow743 5y ago
  Free pre flight enema and sauna.
  - King-Aaron 5y ago
    In-flight liposuction
    - pauljurczak 5y ago
      Liposuction using low pressure outside the cabin.
soheil 5y ago
Free laxatives might be more effective.

soheil 5y ago

This should reduce ticket costs for fit people, which may be an incentive for some to live a healthier lifestyle.

cm2187 5y ago
Not all weight is fat. If you are 1.90m tall man and naturally big, you can easily weight twice as much than a 1.55 woman even if you are fit. How are you going to account for natural weight vs being overweight. Even BMI is very crude.
- soheil 5y ago
  I said some people not all could benefit from a healthier lifestyle which is caused by losing fat, how is this controversial?
  - cm2187 5y ago
    How you measure that at the gate
    - hulitu 5y ago
      They will find a way. Especcialy if they can charge extra.
    - cauliflower2718 5y ago
      As a person who has done weight cuts for weigh-ins, I imagine weighing in at the gate leads to hungry, dehydrated people who get weighed and then immediately eat and re-hydrate. I'm not sure plan bathrooms are suited to the consequences of that.
      - soheil 5y ago
        Some people may suffer by their own actions, but I think a larger number of people may just get into the habit of living a healthier lifestyle specially if they fly a lot to make this worthwhile. Sort of like making wearing seatbelts mandatory, it adds years to your life, while making many uncomfortable an extra bit every time they drive. The weighing could be done at the end of the flight.

mannerheim 5y ago

Some airlines make people who can't fit into a single seat buy two tickets.

soheil 5y ago
Which airlines? Any in the US?
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  Pretty sure all of them do. Here is United's policy: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/extra-seating.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/ex...
  - soheil 5y ago
    Interesting how nowhere in there it mentions the words overweight or fat.
    - mannerheim 5y ago
      That would be a rather rude way of putting things; generally you want to avoid insulting your customers.
      - hulitu 5y ago
        But you want to use any aspect of them to rip them off. Hello Sir, unfortunately we do have small seats so you will have to book also another free seat in the back of the plane and the seat next to it and because you need to seat down also the 2 seats in front of you. Thank for flying XXX Airlanes.
        542354234235 5y ago
        Anyone could choose to pay to fly in big roomy seats. It’s called business and first class. People do not want to do that, which is why people not only keep buying tickets in economy, but buy tickets on budget airlines that are even more cramped, less comfortable, and have less amenities. You are renting space on the plane for the duration of your trip. If you want more space, you are free to purchase it. If you deliberately chose to purchase a seat you know does not fit your needs, then attempt to steal space from the person next to you, then you are the bad guy. Not the airline. If you think you deserve to be gifted free additional space you did not pay for, then you are the bad guy.

chewz 5y ago

Better charge per BMI https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmi...

dagw 5y ago
BMI seems irrelevant in this case. You're not charging people based on if they are at a healthy weight or not(1). Either you are charging extra because more weight = more fuel. In which case 250 lbs is 250 lbs and it doesn't matter if you're 5'2' or 6'10. Or you are charging extra because you are taking up two seats, in which case it again doesn't matter how tall or heavy you are, only how wide you are. (1) Yes I know link between a 'normal' BMI and health is complicated.