4 ms·

> Clearly great news for Facebook employees. For some Facebook employees, definitely. Personally, I think I'll be finding a job elsewhere now.

magneticnorth 5y ago
I'm curious to hear why - what do you see as the drawback of more remote coworkers?
- digbert 5y ago
  Mostly that by having remote co-workers I get many of the downsides of remote work without any of the upsides. Once a few colleagues are remote, all collaboration has to assume remote as the default. Even if I'm in the office I'm still stuck with remote collaboration, but I still have a commute.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Facebook is pretty big. Couldn't you just find a team that is predominately in the office?
  - Izikiel43 5y ago
    Why don't you become remote then? Remote all the things!
    - digbert 5y ago
      That's one option, but personally I find remote utterly miserable and terrible for collaboration. I'd rather find a job where I see my colleagues in person. The upsides for me of being in the office massively outweigh the downsides, but only if my colleagues are there too.
    - Mehdi2277 5y ago
      Because they enjoy the office. I prefer going to the office some but not most days and like occasional trips elsewhere so full remote is fine. I have friends who really like the social aspect of the office and working on a team where most of their teammates are remote would be very undesirable to them. In practice I feel like you could just aim to have some teams be mostly people who like office and other teams be mostly remote. Would be awkward hiring wise though to send someone to a different team just on there office vs remote view.
  - baby 5y ago
    How is remote making collaboration worse since it forces people to overcommunicate?
- ditonal 5y ago
  I'm mixed on remote work, even as an engineering IC, despite claims that only management want in-office. To me, the downside of remote coworkers is we've already seen a dynamic at many companies that start with "we'll allow remote workers" straight to "if we allow any in-person collaboration, then remote workers will be second-class citizens, so to pre-empt that, we will actively discourage any in person collaboration." For example, Coinbase didn't just allow remote but shut down the SF office for this reason. Twitter is re-opening their office but in a crippled state, where the food options are massively downsized, and employees are actively discouraged from eating with any teammates. If you're the type of personality who gets energized by collaboration with teammates, if you like the real teammate relationships that more easily develop with facetime, then it's not a matter of allowing remote coworkers but whether those remote coworkers now get to advocate for actively destroying any office culture. Again, I understand why there's many advantages of remote work, but let's not pretend the people who didn't want to go remote are unaffected.
  - JulianMorrison 5y ago
    I'd think the obvious rejoinder to that approach is, if they want to work remotely, they take the rough with the smooth. No, they are not going to be as plugged into casual office conversations. Their choice.
    - ditonal 5y ago
      That's not what's happening in reality though. I gave you two notable examples but I know of a few more as well. This isn't hypothetical, many companies are actively seeking to destroy their in-person culture (outside of company offsite events). Of course, since every corporate move has to have a feel good PR element to it these days, the buzzword to justify this direction is equity/equality, and that since DEI candidates will be more likely to be remote, it's especially important to destroy Bay Area office culture to make sure remote employees are on equal footing. Again, I know many people at SV companies so this isn't speculation but what I've actually seen happen at several companies. And I'm really not trying to cast judgement on whether this is good or bad for the industry long term, just again noting that the idea that people who don't want to work remotely are largely unaffected by these decisions is totally false.
- anon_tor_12345 5y ago
  i onboarded last summer as an intern and it was pretty miserable. language barrier with my intern manager mediated by zoom/blue jeans/portal plus the famously poorly documented codebase made it damn near impossible to get things done. i got a return offer but i'm pretty sure it was because everyone was struggling (skip said as much). i'm surprised they're doing this.
- screye 5y ago
  I'm in a similar situation, so I guess I can answer. I start in a new role soon and particularly requested a team with no more than 1 day wfh/week. I work in a applied ML and really, the technical aspects of the jobs are the 'easiest', ie. most well defined. In most cases focus + time will be sufficient for me to produce technical work. However, the real challenges lie at the intersections of models, infra, code, product and users. The goal is rarely is to build the best solution, it's to build the right solution. Solutions to these can only be found by collaborating with people who own each specific part. Intense whiteboarding, pair programming, brainstorming, etc were the most interesting parts of my job. All of them have been reduced to a shadow of what they were during remote work. Also, if I'm going to spend 50% of all my waking hours with a group of people, then I better like spending time with them. Being cooped up in a room my myself all day isn't fun at all. (and I have a huge community outside work, but it I don't like waiting for the other 50% to enjoy it) My coworkers are my good friends and if they weren't then I'd go somewhere else. (not drinking the Koolaid. I have no allegiance to corporate, just my nuclear peer group) A 'flexible or remote-optional team' is a lie. Remote and in-person are diametrically opposed office cultures. Both require very different cultural traits to flourish. Ones that try to stay on the fence will inevitably converge into one of the two or end up as a complete disaster. ( coordinated 3 days at work, 2 days at home etc can work...but that's just at-office culture with benefits)
  - baby 5y ago
    > I start in a new role soon > My coworkers are my good friends I think you need to make friends outside work. Live a little.
    - screye 5y ago
      Way to be presumptuous > and I have a huge community outside work, but it I don't like waiting for the other 50% to enjoy it I literally addressed this. I stay in a group home and have a large community outside work. I don't want to wait for 6pm everyday to access people I like. If anything, try making friends with people you spend time with for 50% of your waking hours. Live a little
baby 5y ago
We have a manager using a throaway account here. Of course you’re not going to find a job elsewhere.

magneticnorth 5y ago

I'm curious to hear why - what do you see as the drawback of more remote coworkers?

digbert 5y ago
Mostly that by having remote co-workers I get many of the downsides of remote work without any of the upsides. Once a few colleagues are remote, all collaboration has to assume remote as the default. Even if I'm in the office I'm still stuck with remote collaboration, but I still have a commute.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Facebook is pretty big. Couldn't you just find a team that is predominately in the office?
- Izikiel43 5y ago
  Why don't you become remote then? Remote all the things!
  - digbert 5y ago
    That's one option, but personally I find remote utterly miserable and terrible for collaboration. I'd rather find a job where I see my colleagues in person. The upsides for me of being in the office massively outweigh the downsides, but only if my colleagues are there too.
  - Mehdi2277 5y ago
    Because they enjoy the office. I prefer going to the office some but not most days and like occasional trips elsewhere so full remote is fine. I have friends who really like the social aspect of the office and working on a team where most of their teammates are remote would be very undesirable to them. In practice I feel like you could just aim to have some teams be mostly people who like office and other teams be mostly remote. Would be awkward hiring wise though to send someone to a different team just on there office vs remote view.
- baby 5y ago
  How is remote making collaboration worse since it forces people to overcommunicate?
ditonal 5y ago
I'm mixed on remote work, even as an engineering IC, despite claims that only management want in-office. To me, the downside of remote coworkers is we've already seen a dynamic at many companies that start with "we'll allow remote workers" straight to "if we allow any in-person collaboration, then remote workers will be second-class citizens, so to pre-empt that, we will actively discourage any in person collaboration." For example, Coinbase didn't just allow remote but shut down the SF office for this reason. Twitter is re-opening their office but in a crippled state, where the food options are massively downsized, and employees are actively discouraged from eating with any teammates. If you're the type of personality who gets energized by collaboration with teammates, if you like the real teammate relationships that more easily develop with facetime, then it's not a matter of allowing remote coworkers but whether those remote coworkers now get to advocate for actively destroying any office culture. Again, I understand why there's many advantages of remote work, but let's not pretend the people who didn't want to go remote are unaffected.
- JulianMorrison 5y ago
  I'd think the obvious rejoinder to that approach is, if they want to work remotely, they take the rough with the smooth. No, they are not going to be as plugged into casual office conversations. Their choice.
  - ditonal 5y ago
    That's not what's happening in reality though. I gave you two notable examples but I know of a few more as well. This isn't hypothetical, many companies are actively seeking to destroy their in-person culture (outside of company offsite events). Of course, since every corporate move has to have a feel good PR element to it these days, the buzzword to justify this direction is equity/equality, and that since DEI candidates will be more likely to be remote, it's especially important to destroy Bay Area office culture to make sure remote employees are on equal footing. Again, I know many people at SV companies so this isn't speculation but what I've actually seen happen at several companies. And I'm really not trying to cast judgement on whether this is good or bad for the industry long term, just again noting that the idea that people who don't want to work remotely are largely unaffected by these decisions is totally false.
anon_tor_12345 5y ago
i onboarded last summer as an intern and it was pretty miserable. language barrier with my intern manager mediated by zoom/blue jeans/portal plus the famously poorly documented codebase made it damn near impossible to get things done. i got a return offer but i'm pretty sure it was because everyone was struggling (skip said as much). i'm surprised they're doing this.
screye 5y ago
I'm in a similar situation, so I guess I can answer. I start in a new role soon and particularly requested a team with no more than 1 day wfh/week. I work in a applied ML and really, the technical aspects of the jobs are the 'easiest', ie. most well defined. In most cases focus + time will be sufficient for me to produce technical work. However, the real challenges lie at the intersections of models, infra, code, product and users. The goal is rarely is to build the best solution, it's to build the right solution. Solutions to these can only be found by collaborating with people who own each specific part. Intense whiteboarding, pair programming, brainstorming, etc were the most interesting parts of my job. All of them have been reduced to a shadow of what they were during remote work. Also, if I'm going to spend 50% of all my waking hours with a group of people, then I better like spending time with them. Being cooped up in a room my myself all day isn't fun at all. (and I have a huge community outside work, but it I don't like waiting for the other 50% to enjoy it) My coworkers are my good friends and if they weren't then I'd go somewhere else. (not drinking the Koolaid. I have no allegiance to corporate, just my nuclear peer group) A 'flexible or remote-optional team' is a lie. Remote and in-person are diametrically opposed office cultures. Both require very different cultural traits to flourish. Ones that try to stay on the fence will inevitably converge into one of the two or end up as a complete disaster. ( coordinated 3 days at work, 2 days at home etc can work...but that's just at-office culture with benefits)
- baby 5y ago
  > I start in a new role soon > My coworkers are my good friends I think you need to make friends outside work. Live a little.
  - screye 5y ago
    Way to be presumptuous > and I have a huge community outside work, but it I don't like waiting for the other 50% to enjoy it I literally addressed this. I stay in a group home and have a large community outside work. I don't want to wait for 6pm everyday to access people I like. If anything, try making friends with people you spend time with for 50% of your waking hours. Live a little

baby 5y ago

We have a manager using a throaway account here. Of course you’re not going to find a job elsewhere.