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They draw a line between digital and physical purchases.

smnrchrds 5y ago
They don't force Netflix to pay them 30% either. The reality is they take 30% where they can overpower the other party. Where they are overpowered, they acquiesce.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  They also drew a line between in app and non in app transactions.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    They did not just draw a line; they gerrymandered a line so Netflix would not leave App Store and Apple would not lose its income from smaller players while pretending it is a fair line in the sand. Even Marco Arment has commented on the ridiculousness of the complexity of the line. I highly recommend reading the link below. https://marco.org/2020/09/11/app-review-changes https://marco.org/2020/09/11/app-review-changes
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Oh, I did not know all of that. I would agree those policies are ridiculous.
    - AlexandrB 5y ago
      That post is from Sept. 2020, but Netflix (and Audible, Comixology + others) have been dodging the 30% cut for years simply by not allowing you to pay within the app. I'm not sure Apple had Netflix in mind with this change.
      - smnrchrds 5y ago
        See my other comment here about Netflix: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27453395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27453395
- acchow 5y ago
  I believe the majority of a Netflix subscriber's consumption is still on their TV, not on their iPhone/iPad. But you also cannot pay for Netflix in the iPhone app. You have to do it on their website.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    You can't pay Fanhouse on iOS, either.
  - Hnrobert42 5y ago
    I pay Netflix through my iPhone. I can manage the subscription along with my other iPhone app subscriptions.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    > But you also cannot pay for Netflix in the iPhone app. You have to do it on their website The App Store explicitly rejects smaller apps that attempt to do this. See Hey, the email client that tried the exact same thing and got the cold-shoulder.
- typest 5y ago
  This is because Netflix, knowing Apple would take 30%, does not allow you to sign up via an iPhone app. Apple takes 30% if you sign up via iPhone, not if you sign up via web and then use the iPhone app.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    Netflix was able to do this because Apple carved out an exception for them by gerrymandering the rules so Netflix could do this. They did that because Netflix was powerful enough. Hey tried to do a similar thing, but Apple was having none of it. They were going to force them to pay them 30%, because they were not powerful enough. When the social media storm made them more powerful, Apple acquiesced.
    - ibero 5y ago
      wait, what was Netflix able to do?
      - smnrchrds 5y ago
        Netflix does not allow you to sign up in their iOS app. You have to sing up and set up payment through their website, but you can use your username and password to use your subscription in iOS. They do not pay the Apple Tax. Hey tried to use the exact same, but Apple said they MUST allow sign ups in the app, using in-app purchase API, and paying 30% to Apple. Apple was not going to allow Hey to do what Netflix/Spotify/etc have done for ages, until public sentiments and social media storm forced them to acquiesce.
    - sida 5y ago
      audible - the audio book app also does not allow purchases in-app. Fanhouse can just let purchases happen on web
      - smnrchrds 5y ago
        You mean Audible by Amazon.com, Inc.?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ksec 5y ago
That used to make sense in the early days of Smartphone era. Precisely because Digital have zero variable cost for each additional goods. And Apple wasn't very straight with those rules. They only enforce it on Software and Games, not services. Now everything goes through your Smartphone. And the idea, to quote what Apple has been saying in court, they need to recoup those API cost. As they are using their API, they want a cut. Since the Apps for both Physical and Digital goods uses those API, and Digital Goods doesn't necessary use those API for creation. ( e.g I use Windows to create ), why are they only charging Digital Goods and not Physicals? The only reason why Apple charges 30% of Digital Goods is because they know Digital Goods have zero replication cost. The cost of an additional Digital Goods is essentially zero, they want 30% of it. And Physical goods have basic unit cost. So they are charging base on the product margin. And this was clear in the Wordpess case, once they look at domain name registration where the whole industry is basically operating with 0% margin. Apple decide to put an exemption on it. Then became a question, how did we arrive at 30% in the first place? If you look at Amazon Web Store, they have different percentage rate for different product? Why? Because they is how the market have worked over the years. They are basing the commission on current market rate / margin. Just like your Super Market has different margin for different product. Ever since Apple decided on their Doubling Services Revenue by 2020, they have chased down every single 30% services. It is sad how much good faith they have burned.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
Let me go even further. Why not get a 30% cut of every single credit card operation validated through that bank's iOS app? Why not get a 30% cut of every wire transfer done through that bank's iOS app? Why not get a 30% cut of every national tax declaration submitted through an iOS app? Neither of these is physical. I actually wish they would do this. It just would go to show the power we are bestowing on these "gatekeepers" while governments keep pushing more and more vital services as "apps".
xdennis 5y ago
You've explained how those two are different, but not why Apple is entitled to money from digital goods but not physical ones.
- valparaiso 5y ago
  Because that’s their business model which was stated by judge in Epic vs Apple case. Such types of business are legal for decades. You can’t change that for Apple by not damaging everyone else. Like Epic sells nearly same Fortnite skins for kids making millions and not allowing any independent designers to sell them in Fortnite skin market.

They don't force Netflix to pay them 30% either. The reality is they take 30% where they can overpower the other party. Where they are overpowered, they acquiesce.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
They also drew a line between in app and non in app transactions.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  They did not just draw a line; they gerrymandered a line so Netflix would not leave App Store and Apple would not lose its income from smaller players while pretending it is a fair line in the sand. Even Marco Arment has commented on the ridiculousness of the complexity of the line. I highly recommend reading the link below. https://marco.org/2020/09/11/app-review-changes https://marco.org/2020/09/11/app-review-changes
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Oh, I did not know all of that. I would agree those policies are ridiculous.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    That post is from Sept. 2020, but Netflix (and Audible, Comixology + others) have been dodging the 30% cut for years simply by not allowing you to pay within the app. I'm not sure Apple had Netflix in mind with this change.
    - smnrchrds 5y ago
      See my other comment here about Netflix: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27453395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27453395
acchow 5y ago
I believe the majority of a Netflix subscriber's consumption is still on their TV, not on their iPhone/iPad. But you also cannot pay for Netflix in the iPhone app. You have to do it on their website.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  You can't pay Fanhouse on iOS, either.
- Hnrobert42 5y ago
  I pay Netflix through my iPhone. I can manage the subscription along with my other iPhone app subscriptions.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > But you also cannot pay for Netflix in the iPhone app. You have to do it on their website The App Store explicitly rejects smaller apps that attempt to do this. See Hey, the email client that tried the exact same thing and got the cold-shoulder.
typest 5y ago
This is because Netflix, knowing Apple would take 30%, does not allow you to sign up via an iPhone app. Apple takes 30% if you sign up via iPhone, not if you sign up via web and then use the iPhone app.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  Netflix was able to do this because Apple carved out an exception for them by gerrymandering the rules so Netflix could do this. They did that because Netflix was powerful enough. Hey tried to do a similar thing, but Apple was having none of it. They were going to force them to pay them 30%, because they were not powerful enough. When the social media storm made them more powerful, Apple acquiesced.
  - ibero 5y ago
    wait, what was Netflix able to do?
    - smnrchrds 5y ago
      Netflix does not allow you to sign up in their iOS app. You have to sing up and set up payment through their website, but you can use your username and password to use your subscription in iOS. They do not pay the Apple Tax. Hey tried to use the exact same, but Apple said they MUST allow sign ups in the app, using in-app purchase API, and paying 30% to Apple. Apple was not going to allow Hey to do what Netflix/Spotify/etc have done for ages, until public sentiments and social media storm forced them to acquiesce.
  - sida 5y ago
    audible - the audio book app also does not allow purchases in-app. Fanhouse can just let purchases happen on web
    - smnrchrds 5y ago
      You mean Audible by Amazon.com, Inc.?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ksec 5y ago

That used to make sense in the early days of Smartphone era. Precisely because Digital have zero variable cost for each additional goods. And Apple wasn't very straight with those rules. They only enforce it on Software and Games, not services. Now everything goes through your Smartphone. And the idea, to quote what Apple has been saying in court, they need to recoup those API cost. As they are using their API, they want a cut. Since the Apps for both Physical and Digital goods uses those API, and Digital Goods doesn't necessary use those API for creation. ( e.g I use Windows to create ), why are they only charging Digital Goods and not Physicals? The only reason why Apple charges 30% of Digital Goods is because they know Digital Goods have zero replication cost. The cost of an additional Digital Goods is essentially zero, they want 30% of it. And Physical goods have basic unit cost. So they are charging base on the product margin. And this was clear in the Wordpess case, once they look at domain name registration where the whole industry is basically operating with 0% margin. Apple decide to put an exemption on it. Then became a question, how did we arrive at 30% in the first place? If you look at Amazon Web Store, they have different percentage rate for different product? Why? Because they is how the market have worked over the years. They are basing the commission on current market rate / margin. Just like your Super Market has different margin for different product. Ever since Apple decided on their Doubling Services Revenue by 2020, they have chased down every single 30% services. It is sad how much good faith they have burned.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

Let me go even further. Why not get a 30% cut of every single credit card operation validated through that bank's iOS app? Why not get a 30% cut of every wire transfer done through that bank's iOS app? Why not get a 30% cut of every national tax declaration submitted through an iOS app? Neither of these is physical. I actually wish they would do this. It just would go to show the power we are bestowing on these "gatekeepers" while governments keep pushing more and more vital services as "apps".

xdennis 5y ago

You've explained how those two are different, but not why Apple is entitled to money from digital goods but not physical ones.

valparaiso 5y ago
Because that’s their business model which was stated by judge in Epic vs Apple case. Such types of business are legal for decades. You can’t change that for Apple by not damaging everyone else. Like Epic sells nearly same Fortnite skins for kids making millions and not allowing any independent designers to sell them in Fortnite skin market.