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Serious question, why does everything require an app? Why can't the same thing be accomplished via the mobile web? I get so tired of being prompted to install

Serious question, why does everything require an app? Why can't the same thing be accomplished via the mobile web? I get so tired of being prompted to install apps when you could just *show me the damned web page*. Anything that requires speed can be done via webassembly, and sure, anything like games can ship a native app.

JamesSwift 5y ago
Usually for proper push messaging and background processing
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  Those have been part of the web standards for ages (serviceworkers, web notifications).
  - azinman2 5y ago
    Web notifications don’t work on iOS and I’m assuming Android as well? Serviceworkers aren’t woken up in response to a background push if your phone is lock and not on that webpage.
    - drfuzzyness 5y ago
      From a user standpoint, Web Notifications work quite well on Android. When using Chrome for Android (Chromium), each site is assigned a separate Notification Channel so users can change notification priority or block notifications. Firefox for Android (Gecko) works similarly but without Notification Channels.
    - jeroenhd 5y ago
      Web notifications work fine on Android. Has Apple still not fixed notifications then? I was under the impression that they claimed to have massively improve Safari during last year's conference?
      - azinman2 5y ago
        AFAIK web notifications do not exist on iOS.
  - Epskampie 5y ago
    Yeah, not supported on iOS.
    - Klonoar 5y ago
      Well, there was technically that iOS wallet/pass trick - dunno if it's been plugged tho. Otherwise, yeah.
  - dnissley 5y ago
    https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notifications_API/Using_the_Notifications_API#browser_compatibility https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...
  - querulous 5y ago
    not on mobile safari
    - JamesSwift 5y ago
      Right, and for those who aren't aware, that means not on any iOS browser since they all (are required to) use safari under the covers
  - JamesSwift 5y ago
    OK, well iOS doesn't adhere to the standard, which means most of the US mobile device market does not support it.
  - toast0 5y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong (I'd actually love to be wrong), but browsers don't let you do silent pushes, and background data fetches are pretty limited, which makes it hard to do something where the phone gets updated frequently with non-urgent data, so that when you open the app/page, you have current data regardless of connectivity when you open the app, assuming you've got at least intermittent connectivity. Weather, headline news, sports scores, non-urgent messaging could really use silent push to get data synced whenever you want to use it, but clearly not with Safari on an iPhone, and I don't think you can do it on Android without an app either.
    - sagarm 5y ago
      Why the heck do you need to be constantly pushed headlines, sport scores, and non-urgent messages? Just make them load fast, so when you only use resources on the device when the app is actually in use. It's exactly this kind of wasteful resource usage and the accompanying notification spam that drives me to avoid native apps in the first place.
      - toast0 5y ago
        Because I want to use these things when I have no connectivity. And I don't always plan ahead for no connectivity. Given where I live, my big one is ferries. When I get on the ferry, it's a nice time to see what's going on in the world, and what the weather will be like, and maybe check work email (before I retired), but I can't do any of those in an online only world because cell coverage is very spotty. For the small handful of apps that manage a data store on the device, I can use those and catch up on things and queue outgoing messages. I'd like to make some more things for me, but native Android development is beyond my patience, and PWA doesn't have the capabilities, and some horrible blend of the two is what's wrong with today's world :p
      - JamesSwift 5y ago
        "Proper" app development treats the network as optional. Its surprising how spotty connectivity is in the real world, and so its a huge UX boost to load data predicatively when possible (not to mention that running offline-first is a magical experience for the user).
enlyth 5y ago
I think people are used to just scrolling to an icon on their home screen and tapping on it, and companies like Apple/Google don't really like the idea of PWAs because they lose control over the developers and walled garden ecosystems they have created Developers will optimize for what feels natural to the user, i.e. installing an "app" which doesn't require typing an address in the browser or scrolling through bookmarks Also some companies from the developer side will want that extra user control that you don't have in the browser, for example to track them more, play unskippable ads, or access to some native features on the phone which are not available in web apps
- Grimm1 5y ago
  Google actually pushed for the PWA and did/does things to support them. It’s largely Apple that has made them more difficult/impossible.
- sagarm 5y ago
  Chrome supports installing web apps to your home screen, though clearly even among the HN crowd that is not common knowledge.
alexyz12 5y ago
It's hard to do photo/video/media integration on a web page. There no good way to interact with the filesystem to share content, start a livestream, etc. UIKit also make it pretty easy to create layouts that work well on your phone with swiping gestures. I am an app developer that would love to move to a mobile web app but those are the problems that I am running into at least. If web assembly can accomplish all of that then I just am not well educated enough to use it instead.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  I don't know about iOS, but the file picker on Android is fine. Live streaming through Javascript is also no harder than live streaming through native libraries. Granted, there may be less "official" SDKs out there because the web is an open ecosystem, but still. Jitsi and Kickstarter have quite competent streaming systems. I remember being amazed by the incredibly low latency the Kickstarter streaming system has (always sub 100ms between camera and my screen across the Atlantic with good quality!). An app for uploading images and videos, writing text posts, receiving payment and streaming video doesn't need a native app. If there is a choice between giving an absurd percentage to Apple or building a web version, the web version makes a lot more sense. However, even if they build out a web version right now, Apple will refuse any update pointing users towards the web version of any app because that goes against their TOS. That will make any switch quite difficult.
  - can16358p 5y ago
    Even if technically all SDKs had an equivalent, a PWA never, ever feels like a real native app. All the difference is noticable. It's all the slight details, gesture and touch handling, and few more, but they all sum of and it feels laggy.
- dyingkneepad 5y ago
  Your service not having access to my data is a feature. It's one of the primary reasons I prefer websites over apps.
  - 5y ago
fastball 5y ago
We're building a mobile app because our users demand it.
tpl 5y ago
Apple intentionally hobbled mobile web for a long time on iOS to incentivize people writing a native app over just making a webapp.
baby 5y ago
I’m wondering if native mobile apps are doomed to disappear as the web and mobile Browsers meet in the middle, the same way everything was a native app for quite some time in desktop land and now everything is a webapp.
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  If you watch Apple they're doing everything within their power to make sure this doesn't happen. Current day because they've neglected Macs so much over the past few years your Mac is now mostly just a shell to run a jumble of electron apps (I used to love Mac Cocoa apps but can't even name one that has launched in the past 2 years) but if you follow what they're doing they'd prefer it if it was a selection of iPadOS apps instead.
- bruceb 5y ago
  Doubt it, mobile phones have only increased in features. More features, more likely need native app. What incentive to does Apple have to make people use apps less and the web more?
  - baby 5y ago
    What features? Not every app needs access to your camera.
- Sargos 5y ago
  Apple doesn't allow third party web browsers on iOS so native apps are the only viable solution until that changes.
  - baby 5y ago
    My guess is that this will be the subject of a lawsuit at some point.
patagonia 5y ago
Wrong question
nickthegreek 5y ago
onlyfans is doing just fine in this space. They didn't want to worry about app store TOS or % cuts and decided to be web only.
- gmaster1440 5y ago
  While a good example of a web app that could've been a native app, there's a strong argument that they didn't decide to be web only as much as forced due to the nature of their content never being allowed in the app stores.
  - majani 5y ago
    Yeah, the online gray area companies like porn and gambling are the ones largely holding up the web at this point.
stefan_ 5y ago
Oh, I know this one! Because Apple made Safari the new Internet Explorer to force you into their walled garden where they extract their tithe.
- rabuse 5y ago
  I can't stand building for iOS Safari. It is the pain-point in so much of my development.
enoughalready 5y ago
Many features aren't available on the web. e.g. web midi isn't planned on being worked on anytime soon by the webkit team. Also, iOS Safari browser updates constantly break/maim apps. e.g. iOS 14.4.x all had real time audio processing issues that weren't fixed until iOS 14.5.
bahmboo 5y ago
Because apple deliberately hobbles mobile safari so that you need a native app to get real stuff to work. Google talks the talk for web apps but still falls far short. And why not? They are making so much money by not actually supporting web apps. It's in both companies DNA now.
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
Because Apple is intentionally limiting the mobile web to force your hand to create an app. I've been working on hardware that we've been trying to ship using open technology for the protocols so it doesn't need apps. So focusing on things like WebBT and WebUSB which is almost magic, a user can unbox your device go to a website and then do anything you'd possibly want with. But yeah all falls apart the second it needs to work on an iPhone and you're back in the world of having to build an app. Whole thing works flawlessly with just a webdev team on computers and android devices but because of Apple to ship this vision we need to build a solitary iOS app too. I say this as an iPhone user too, unfortunately I feel too locked into their platform to leave now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Jcowell 5y ago
  Is there anywhere I can try out this application?
  - whywhywhywhy 5y ago
    Nothing I can show of it yet, but I encourage you to look into the WebUSB and WebBT APIs with an open mind. I know a lot of HN users don't like them because they see it as a gateway to fingerprinting, not sure how much truth there is to that but for me I see there is a huge benefit to devices being able to communicate with our computers over open and understandable protocols. Currently today, say you buy an IOT device you have to download a smartphone app. On a long enough timeline that smartphone app will stop being updated and then eventually it will stop working after an OS update, especially if its iOS and then at that point the device basically becomes landfill fodder. If it were WebUSB or WebBT you just need to ship a web page, there is a greater chance that web page will still work down the line with newer browsers, if it doesn't rely on a server you could even archive that web page and at least it's easier to reverse engineer. Not to mention the web app will work on Linux too, no need to ship platform specific executables. For me WebUSB and WebBT are great moves towards more sustainable and maintainable hardware.
pzo 5y ago
Apple doesn't support a lot of modern web api or the api they provide is crippled. just few examples: there is no full screen mode Web api on iPhone - only on ipad - games pretty much require those. There is no web push notification support on ios - only on desktop safari.
ksec 5y ago
>Serious question, why does everything require an app? An App button on your home screen is zillion times better for 95% of user than a web address. If Apple allowed one click installation of Web App. ( Not clicking on Safari settings and add Site to Home Screen button ). Or Scanning a QRCode to download a Web App. Along with adding all the missing Web App features to Safari that could be enabled only for Web App and not Web browser. That would have been fine by me. This is borderline as good as side loading.
- wing-_-nuts 5y ago
  >An App button on your home screen is zillion times better for 95% of user than a web address. I can create a button on my home screen that will take me right to a web page with one click (on android, I'm assuming you can also do this on ios)
npteljes 5y ago
With apps, publishers have more control, compared to webpages. For example, it's harder to block ads, or specific components of the page.
majani 5y ago
Nowadays even most games are casual games that can also be run on the web easily. I'm personally making my first game and it's going to be delivered through the web. Crossing my fingers that people actually appreciate the lack of a download and the cross-platform support out of the box.

JamesSwift 5y ago

Usually for proper push messaging and background processing

jeroenhd 5y ago
Those have been part of the web standards for ages (serviceworkers, web notifications).
- azinman2 5y ago
  Web notifications don’t work on iOS and I’m assuming Android as well? Serviceworkers aren’t woken up in response to a background push if your phone is lock and not on that webpage.
  - drfuzzyness 5y ago
    From a user standpoint, Web Notifications work quite well on Android. When using Chrome for Android (Chromium), each site is assigned a separate Notification Channel so users can change notification priority or block notifications. Firefox for Android (Gecko) works similarly but without Notification Channels.
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    Web notifications work fine on Android. Has Apple still not fixed notifications then? I was under the impression that they claimed to have massively improve Safari during last year's conference?
    - azinman2 5y ago
      AFAIK web notifications do not exist on iOS.
- Epskampie 5y ago
  Yeah, not supported on iOS.
  - Klonoar 5y ago
    Well, there was technically that iOS wallet/pass trick - dunno if it's been plugged tho. Otherwise, yeah.
- dnissley 5y ago
  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notifications_API/Using_the_Notifications_API#browser_compatibility https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...
- querulous 5y ago
  not on mobile safari
  - JamesSwift 5y ago
    Right, and for those who aren't aware, that means not on any iOS browser since they all (are required to) use safari under the covers
- JamesSwift 5y ago
  OK, well iOS doesn't adhere to the standard, which means most of the US mobile device market does not support it.
- toast0 5y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong (I'd actually love to be wrong), but browsers don't let you do silent pushes, and background data fetches are pretty limited, which makes it hard to do something where the phone gets updated frequently with non-urgent data, so that when you open the app/page, you have current data regardless of connectivity when you open the app, assuming you've got at least intermittent connectivity. Weather, headline news, sports scores, non-urgent messaging could really use silent push to get data synced whenever you want to use it, but clearly not with Safari on an iPhone, and I don't think you can do it on Android without an app either.
  - sagarm 5y ago
    Why the heck do you need to be constantly pushed headlines, sport scores, and non-urgent messages? Just make them load fast, so when you only use resources on the device when the app is actually in use. It's exactly this kind of wasteful resource usage and the accompanying notification spam that drives me to avoid native apps in the first place.
    - toast0 5y ago
      Because I want to use these things when I have no connectivity. And I don't always plan ahead for no connectivity. Given where I live, my big one is ferries. When I get on the ferry, it's a nice time to see what's going on in the world, and what the weather will be like, and maybe check work email (before I retired), but I can't do any of those in an online only world because cell coverage is very spotty. For the small handful of apps that manage a data store on the device, I can use those and catch up on things and queue outgoing messages. I'd like to make some more things for me, but native Android development is beyond my patience, and PWA doesn't have the capabilities, and some horrible blend of the two is what's wrong with today's world :p
    - JamesSwift 5y ago
      "Proper" app development treats the network as optional. Its surprising how spotty connectivity is in the real world, and so its a huge UX boost to load data predicatively when possible (not to mention that running offline-first is a magical experience for the user).

enlyth 5y ago

I think people are used to just scrolling to an icon on their home screen and tapping on it, and companies like Apple/Google don't really like the idea of PWAs because they lose control over the developers and walled garden ecosystems they have created Developers will optimize for what feels natural to the user, i.e. installing an "app" which doesn't require typing an address in the browser or scrolling through bookmarks Also some companies from the developer side will want that extra user control that you don't have in the browser, for example to track them more, play unskippable ads, or access to some native features on the phone which are not available in web apps

Grimm1 5y ago
Google actually pushed for the PWA and did/does things to support them. It’s largely Apple that has made them more difficult/impossible.
sagarm 5y ago
Chrome supports installing web apps to your home screen, though clearly even among the HN crowd that is not common knowledge.

alexyz12 5y ago

It's hard to do photo/video/media integration on a web page. There no good way to interact with the filesystem to share content, start a livestream, etc. UIKit also make it pretty easy to create layouts that work well on your phone with swiping gestures. I am an app developer that would love to move to a mobile web app but those are the problems that I am running into at least. If web assembly can accomplish all of that then I just am not well educated enough to use it instead.

jeroenhd 5y ago
I don't know about iOS, but the file picker on Android is fine. Live streaming through Javascript is also no harder than live streaming through native libraries. Granted, there may be less "official" SDKs out there because the web is an open ecosystem, but still. Jitsi and Kickstarter have quite competent streaming systems. I remember being amazed by the incredibly low latency the Kickstarter streaming system has (always sub 100ms between camera and my screen across the Atlantic with good quality!). An app for uploading images and videos, writing text posts, receiving payment and streaming video doesn't need a native app. If there is a choice between giving an absurd percentage to Apple or building a web version, the web version makes a lot more sense. However, even if they build out a web version right now, Apple will refuse any update pointing users towards the web version of any app because that goes against their TOS. That will make any switch quite difficult.
- can16358p 5y ago
  Even if technically all SDKs had an equivalent, a PWA never, ever feels like a real native app. All the difference is noticable. It's all the slight details, gesture and touch handling, and few more, but they all sum of and it feels laggy.
dyingkneepad 5y ago
Your service not having access to my data is a feature. It's one of the primary reasons I prefer websites over apps.
- 5y ago

fastball 5y ago

We're building a mobile app because our users demand it.

tpl 5y ago

Apple intentionally hobbled mobile web for a long time on iOS to incentivize people writing a native app over just making a webapp.

baby 5y ago

I’m wondering if native mobile apps are doomed to disappear as the web and mobile Browsers meet in the middle, the same way everything was a native app for quite some time in desktop land and now everything is a webapp.

whywhywhywhy 5y ago
If you watch Apple they're doing everything within their power to make sure this doesn't happen. Current day because they've neglected Macs so much over the past few years your Mac is now mostly just a shell to run a jumble of electron apps (I used to love Mac Cocoa apps but can't even name one that has launched in the past 2 years) but if you follow what they're doing they'd prefer it if it was a selection of iPadOS apps instead.
bruceb 5y ago
Doubt it, mobile phones have only increased in features. More features, more likely need native app. What incentive to does Apple have to make people use apps less and the web more?
- baby 5y ago
  What features? Not every app needs access to your camera.
Sargos 5y ago
Apple doesn't allow third party web browsers on iOS so native apps are the only viable solution until that changes.
- baby 5y ago
  My guess is that this will be the subject of a lawsuit at some point.

patagonia 5y ago

Wrong question

nickthegreek 5y ago

onlyfans is doing just fine in this space. They didn't want to worry about app store TOS or % cuts and decided to be web only.

gmaster1440 5y ago
While a good example of a web app that could've been a native app, there's a strong argument that they didn't decide to be web only as much as forced due to the nature of their content never being allowed in the app stores.
- majani 5y ago
  Yeah, the online gray area companies like porn and gambling are the ones largely holding up the web at this point.

stefan_ 5y ago

Oh, I know this one! Because Apple made Safari the new Internet Explorer to force you into their walled garden where they extract their tithe.

rabuse 5y ago
I can't stand building for iOS Safari. It is the pain-point in so much of my development.

enoughalready 5y ago

Many features aren't available on the web. e.g. web midi isn't planned on being worked on anytime soon by the webkit team. Also, iOS Safari browser updates constantly break/maim apps. e.g. iOS 14.4.x all had real time audio processing issues that weren't fixed until iOS 14.5.

bahmboo 5y ago

Because apple deliberately hobbles mobile safari so that you need a native app to get real stuff to work. Google talks the talk for web apps but still falls far short. And why not? They are making so much money by not actually supporting web apps. It's in both companies DNA now.

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

Because Apple is intentionally limiting the mobile web to force your hand to create an app. I've been working on hardware that we've been trying to ship using open technology for the protocols so it doesn't need apps. So focusing on things like WebBT and WebUSB which is almost magic, a user can unbox your device go to a website and then do anything you'd possibly want with. But yeah all falls apart the second it needs to work on an iPhone and you're back in the world of having to build an app. Whole thing works flawlessly with just a webdev team on computers and android devices but because of Apple to ship this vision we need to build a solitary iOS app too. I say this as an iPhone user too, unfortunately I feel too locked into their platform to leave now.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Jcowell 5y ago
Is there anywhere I can try out this application?
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  Nothing I can show of it yet, but I encourage you to look into the WebUSB and WebBT APIs with an open mind. I know a lot of HN users don't like them because they see it as a gateway to fingerprinting, not sure how much truth there is to that but for me I see there is a huge benefit to devices being able to communicate with our computers over open and understandable protocols. Currently today, say you buy an IOT device you have to download a smartphone app. On a long enough timeline that smartphone app will stop being updated and then eventually it will stop working after an OS update, especially if its iOS and then at that point the device basically becomes landfill fodder. If it were WebUSB or WebBT you just need to ship a web page, there is a greater chance that web page will still work down the line with newer browsers, if it doesn't rely on a server you could even archive that web page and at least it's easier to reverse engineer. Not to mention the web app will work on Linux too, no need to ship platform specific executables. For me WebUSB and WebBT are great moves towards more sustainable and maintainable hardware.

pzo 5y ago

Apple doesn't support a lot of modern web api or the api they provide is crippled. just few examples: there is no full screen mode Web api on iPhone - only on ipad - games pretty much require those. There is no web push notification support on ios - only on desktop safari.

ksec 5y ago

>Serious question, why does everything require an app? An App button on your home screen is zillion times better for 95% of user than a web address. If Apple allowed one click installation of Web App. ( Not clicking on Safari settings and add Site to Home Screen button ). Or Scanning a QRCode to download a Web App. Along with adding all the missing Web App features to Safari that could be enabled only for Web App and not Web browser. That would have been fine by me. This is borderline as good as side loading.

wing-_-nuts 5y ago
>An App button on your home screen is zillion times better for 95% of user than a web address. I can create a button on my home screen that will take me right to a web page with one click (on android, I'm assuming you can also do this on ios)

npteljes 5y ago

With apps, publishers have more control, compared to webpages. For example, it's harder to block ads, or specific components of the page.

majani 5y ago

Nowadays even most games are casual games that can also be run on the web easily. I'm personally making my first game and it's going to be delivered through the web. Crossing my fingers that people actually appreciate the lack of a download and the cross-platform support out of the box.