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An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy Use and El Salvador’s use has no influence on that The hyperbole only marginaliz

An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy Use and El Salvador’s use has no influence on that The hyperbole only marginalizes yourself

Dzugaru 5y ago
This argument is deeply flawed for an obvious reason. E.g. why do you vote if your vote is only one of a hundred million?
- vmception 5y ago
  It wasn’t an argument I said how it works
  - Dzugaru 5y ago
    Except that's not how it works. This adoption has a massive impact on acceptance of Bitcoin. If we assume Bitcoin is a mistake for humanity - this clearly is a great wrongdoing. A smaller wrongdoing would be buying Bitcoin, holding Bitcoin or making positive comments about Bitcoin on HN. Sadly, all these are economically justified (for now).
    - sabhiram 5y ago
      Isn't it pretty awesome that as a bunch of environmental activists, we are ok with golf greens and almond exports? Ok with tankers which spill oil by the lake-full and intense deforestation? But when it comes to proof of work crypto - suddenly it's a veil of FUD? How can you find fault with someone trying to make more money? This is capitalism at work. Not saying the energy argument for crypto is moot, but it is certainly blown way the heck out of proportion. Let's regulate lithium mining while we are at it, no? Economic advantage is a like gas in a vacuum, it will spread everywhere it can, until it cannot.
      - rspeele 5y ago
        Many things in the world use a lot of energy, even inefficiently. But it's hard for me to think of another thing that makes a worldwide competition for who can waste the most energy, with a massive crowdfunded prize every 10 minutes, and the crowd that has paid into the system to fund the prizes so far wants me to join in funding it so the prize can get bigger. Edit: for example, take Cathie Wood's claim that Bitcoin will be worth $500,000. If that happens before 2024, that would make the reward for the winner of the useless-hashing race $3.1 million plus change, every 10 minutes. Awesome!!! That kind of money can buy a lot of useless-hashing ASICs and energy to run them. The smart miner had better spend most of it that way, just to be able to keep up with the others in the race.
      - lukifer 5y ago
        The appropriate answer (widely accepted by economists [0]) is a carbon tax and dividend, such that the externality is assigned a proportionate price signal. This additional price burden would be factored into the Proof of Work, and might provide additional incentive to migrate to Proof of Stake, or a low-energy Proof of Work algo. (This might eventually happen anyway, due to competitive pressures of transaction costs). We can argue until the cows come home about which energy expenses increase human well-being, and which are “wasteful” (Adam Smith hated opera and thought it was a waste of money), but the only fair answer is to ask individuals and firms to pay their fair share proportional to usage, be it crypto mining or cloud marketing analytics or Christmas lights. [0] https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/ https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/
    - vmception 5y ago
      An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy Your dissertation seems to be unrelated to this conversation. Your topic sentence says “thats not an argument.” Or “thats not how it works” and proceeds to not disprove that at all, derailing every conversation with something completely unrelated This is against HN guidelines
- sabhiram 5y ago
  Because 99,999,999 != 100,000,000?
rspeele 5y ago
The price of bitcoin determines how miners get paid, which determines how much energy they can (and rationally should) spend on mining. This news appears to have spiked the price of Bitcoin. Presumably, if El Salvador actually implements this policy and starts using Bitcoin that would also increase demand for Bitcoin and increase its price. Additionally, a full bitcoin block with high fees pays for more mining expenditure than an empty one. So if there is high demand for block space, that also can increase mining energy usage.
- la_fayette 5y ago
  As they use lightning network the reasoning that there will be high demand for block space is not a valid assumption. Theoretically, it is possible that the government of el salvador is doing a single transaction on the blockchain as channel funding and sends bitcoin via lightning to 6,4 million people from el salvador from that channel without touching the blockchain...
  - rspeele 5y ago
    The main impact is still Bitcoin price. Anything that makes Bitcoin's price go up makes the mining energy usage go up too. The fees are just a bonus. But anyway: 1. A transaction creating a channel factory for 6.4 million different keyholders would be too large to fit in a block. 2. 6.4 million users on LN would be a great target for flood and loot[0]. [0]https://medium.com/blockchains-huji/flood-loot-a-systemic-attack-on-the-lightning-network-5c3dac7bba24 https://medium.com/blockchains-huji/flood-loot-a-systemic-at...
  - loup-vaillant 5y ago
    Block space isn't the point. The price of a Bitcoin is. Raise the price, and mining will naturally spend more energy on it. Therefore, anything that raises the price of Bitcoin contributes to Global Warming.
    - anonporridge 5y ago
      Price of bitcoin * total block reward (new coins + fees) The total value of the miner reward does increase with price, but because of halvings every 210,000 blocks it's a slower rate than the price increases on its own. Note here, https://www.blockchain.com/charts/miners-revenue https://www.blockchain.com/charts/miners-revenue, that the current miner reward (in USD) is currently lower than it was at the peak of the 2017 bull run, despite the unit price being approximately double.
angry_octet 5y ago
Truly an exemplary level of delusion. I marvel that people are able to function day to day in society while having deeply held views that are so divorced from reality.
- vmception 5y ago
  An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy I wasn't commenting on whether use of the network makes it more attractive to compete for increasingly scarce bitcoin with sustained or greater use of energy Its not that hard, just imagine you are taking a standardized test, the accurate answer is the one you choose

An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy Use and El Salvador’s use has no influence on that The hyperbole only marginalizes yourself

Dzugaru 5y ago

This argument is deeply flawed for an obvious reason. E.g. why do you vote if your vote is only one of a hundred million?

vmception 5y ago
It wasn’t an argument I said how it works
- Dzugaru 5y ago
  Except that's not how it works. This adoption has a massive impact on acceptance of Bitcoin. If we assume Bitcoin is a mistake for humanity - this clearly is a great wrongdoing. A smaller wrongdoing would be buying Bitcoin, holding Bitcoin or making positive comments about Bitcoin on HN. Sadly, all these are economically justified (for now).
  - sabhiram 5y ago
    Isn't it pretty awesome that as a bunch of environmental activists, we are ok with golf greens and almond exports? Ok with tankers which spill oil by the lake-full and intense deforestation? But when it comes to proof of work crypto - suddenly it's a veil of FUD? How can you find fault with someone trying to make more money? This is capitalism at work. Not saying the energy argument for crypto is moot, but it is certainly blown way the heck out of proportion. Let's regulate lithium mining while we are at it, no? Economic advantage is a like gas in a vacuum, it will spread everywhere it can, until it cannot.
    - rspeele 5y ago
      Many things in the world use a lot of energy, even inefficiently. But it's hard for me to think of another thing that makes a worldwide competition for who can waste the most energy, with a massive crowdfunded prize every 10 minutes, and the crowd that has paid into the system to fund the prizes so far wants me to join in funding it so the prize can get bigger. Edit: for example, take Cathie Wood's claim that Bitcoin will be worth $500,000. If that happens before 2024, that would make the reward for the winner of the useless-hashing race $3.1 million plus change, every 10 minutes. Awesome!!! That kind of money can buy a lot of useless-hashing ASICs and energy to run them. The smart miner had better spend most of it that way, just to be able to keep up with the others in the race.
    - lukifer 5y ago
      The appropriate answer (widely accepted by economists [0]) is a carbon tax and dividend, such that the externality is assigned a proportionate price signal. This additional price burden would be factored into the Proof of Work, and might provide additional incentive to migrate to Proof of Stake, or a low-energy Proof of Work algo. (This might eventually happen anyway, due to competitive pressures of transaction costs). We can argue until the cows come home about which energy expenses increase human well-being, and which are “wasteful” (Adam Smith hated opera and thought it was a waste of money), but the only fair answer is to ask individuals and firms to pay their fair share proportional to usage, be it crypto mining or cloud marketing analytics or Christmas lights. [0] https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/ https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/
  - vmception 5y ago
    An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy Your dissertation seems to be unrelated to this conversation. Your topic sentence says “thats not an argument.” Or “thats not how it works” and proceeds to not disprove that at all, derailing every conversation with something completely unrelated This is against HN guidelines
sabhiram 5y ago
Because 99,999,999 != 100,000,000?

rspeele 5y ago

The price of bitcoin determines how miners get paid, which determines how much energy they can (and rationally should) spend on mining. This news appears to have spiked the price of Bitcoin. Presumably, if El Salvador actually implements this policy and starts using Bitcoin that would also increase demand for Bitcoin and increase its price. Additionally, a full bitcoin block with high fees pays for more mining expenditure than an empty one. So if there is high demand for block space, that also can increase mining energy usage.

la_fayette 5y ago
As they use lightning network the reasoning that there will be high demand for block space is not a valid assumption. Theoretically, it is possible that the government of el salvador is doing a single transaction on the blockchain as channel funding and sends bitcoin via lightning to 6,4 million people from el salvador from that channel without touching the blockchain...
- rspeele 5y ago
  The main impact is still Bitcoin price. Anything that makes Bitcoin's price go up makes the mining energy usage go up too. The fees are just a bonus. But anyway: 1. A transaction creating a channel factory for 6.4 million different keyholders would be too large to fit in a block. 2. 6.4 million users on LN would be a great target for flood and loot[0]. [0]https://medium.com/blockchains-huji/flood-loot-a-systemic-attack-on-the-lightning-network-5c3dac7bba24 https://medium.com/blockchains-huji/flood-loot-a-systemic-at...
- loup-vaillant 5y ago
  Block space isn't the point. The price of a Bitcoin is. Raise the price, and mining will naturally spend more energy on it. Therefore, anything that raises the price of Bitcoin contributes to Global Warming.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    Price of bitcoin * total block reward (new coins + fees) The total value of the miner reward does increase with price, but because of halvings every 210,000 blocks it's a slower rate than the price increases on its own. Note here, https://www.blockchain.com/charts/miners-revenue https://www.blockchain.com/charts/miners-revenue, that the current miner reward (in USD) is currently lower than it was at the peak of the 2017 bull run, despite the unit price being approximately double.

angry_octet 5y ago

Truly an exemplary level of delusion. I marvel that people are able to function day to day in society while having deeply held views that are so divorced from reality.

vmception 5y ago
An empty bitcoin block and a full bitcoin block use the same amount of energy I wasn't commenting on whether use of the network makes it more attractive to compete for increasingly scarce bitcoin with sustained or greater use of energy Its not that hard, just imagine you are taking a standardized test, the accurate answer is the one you choose