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"Ideally, all those savings would be channeled into productive investments such as research and development, or practical equipment, or new roads, or even new y

"Ideally, all those savings would be channeled into productive investments such as research and development, or practical equipment, or new roads, or even new yachts--investments that would promote growth in the economy." It's important to keep in mind that even when that money is spent, there's no guarantee it'll be spent domestically. Just as an example, Jeff Bezos bought his $500 million superyacht from Oceanco, a Dutch yachtmaker. Increasingly, the ultra-rich are, like many of the companies they control, multinational.

kaesar14 5y ago
As vile as the robber barons were, at least they were bounded by the confines of their environment to care at least a bit about their countrymen and have some patriotic tendencies.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Do we count Africans or the native American tribes?. We have made some progress.
  - cyberlurker 5y ago
    Modern day robber barons aren’t helping those groups either.
    - tootie 5y ago
      I think compared to the Gilded Age they're doing a 1000x better job. Even if it's because they were dragged into doing it. It's easy to point out shortcomings, but don't ignore progress. Think of America as a giant venture-funded experiment in equality. Even if we're 200 years in without a showing a profit, we've had steady revenue growth and loyal customers. Profits will come eventually.
      - kaesar14 5y ago
        How are they doing a better job?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
RC_ITR 5y ago
Yeah, but you can't really look at economies from that protectionist viewpoint. The US primarily exports services like software, consulting, tourism, etc. that rely on strong foreign economies. So if that Dutch shipbuilder needs AUTOCAD and Slack to function and then the employees vacation in Miami, the US still benefits despite the final product being produced elsewhere.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  What fraction of the US$500M do you think those benefits to the US might add up to?
  - chairmanwow1 5y ago
    According to the Census Bureau, the trade balance between the US <==> Netherlands is +$17B in the US's favor [0]. This seems to support OP's point. [0] https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4210.html https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4210.html
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      Do you believe that this trade imbalance makes it likely that a significant part of the US$500M Bezos reportedly spent on the boat will return to the US? The trade numbers mean that the Netherlands spent about 4.5% of its GDP (US$1T) in trade with the US. That would imply that if the boat fits into those patterns, about 22M of the 500M cost might come back to the USA. One possibility is that despite not having the boatyards in the US that could build such a vessel, the majority or even just a substantial fraction of the components that are used for the boat originate in the USA, and that in reality significantly more of the US$500m will flow back to the USA. I don't know enough about the construction of contemporary mega-yachts to know if that's likely or not.
      - justincormack 5y ago
        The US doesn't need to produce yachts (or this particular type of yacht), thats the whole idea of trade, you specialise in some things not others, and everyone ends up better off. There are a huge number of components in a yacht, many American. And financing and so on.
pauldickwin 5y ago
It's more important to keep in mind that Amazon created hundreds of thousands of new jobs, raised minimum wage in many areas, and brought many people out of absolute poverty. No matter which way you look at it, a net positive rather than a negative.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > No matter which way you look at it, a net positive rather than a negative. You just listed the positives, without any the negatives, and without any sign of actually weighing one against the other. I don't know if Amazon is a net social positive, but it certainly isn't obvious and the answer coudl very well be no despite the positives. ps. I helped create Amazon.
- whoaisme 5y ago
  "It's more important to keep in mind that the CCP created hundreds of thousands of new jobs, raised minimum wage in many areas, and brought many people out of absolute poverty. No matter which way you look at it, a net positive rather than a negative." Your logic seems highly suspect.
  - chairmanwow1 5y ago
    The CCP created hundreds of millions of new jobs and brought hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty. The CCP has its problems, but you must respect that so much economic growth has never happened so quickly for so many people in human history. A lot of people are living happier, more productive, more interesting lives because of the actions of the CCP.
    - mint2 5y ago
      The question is would a similar number jobs have been created had there been another ruling party. It’s like giving trump credit for investing in the vaccine, it’s a near guarantee given America’s economy that the vaccine would have been invested in even if Mickey Mouse had been president. In my mind, neither Biden nor Trump get any credit for the vaccines. China saw massive famines due to the Great Leap Forward, ccp policy, killing millions. How do we know that had a different government been in power the jobs wouldn’t be created, perhaps faster like with Taiwan, and at the same time the famines avoided? So no, I’m not going to give the ccp credit for creating jobs that like as not would have anyway been created.
namdnay 5y ago
We’ll, those $500 million came from all over the world too, so it doesn’t seem surprising to see them being spent all over the world

kaesar14 5y ago

As vile as the robber barons were, at least they were bounded by the confines of their environment to care at least a bit about their countrymen and have some patriotic tendencies.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Do we count Africans or the native American tribes?. We have made some progress.
- cyberlurker 5y ago
  Modern day robber barons aren’t helping those groups either.
  - tootie 5y ago
    I think compared to the Gilded Age they're doing a 1000x better job. Even if it's because they were dragged into doing it. It's easy to point out shortcomings, but don't ignore progress. Think of America as a giant venture-funded experiment in equality. Even if we're 200 years in without a showing a profit, we've had steady revenue growth and loyal customers. Profits will come eventually.
    - kaesar14 5y ago
      How are they doing a better job?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

RC_ITR 5y ago

Yeah, but you can't really look at economies from that protectionist viewpoint. The US primarily exports services like software, consulting, tourism, etc. that rely on strong foreign economies. So if that Dutch shipbuilder needs AUTOCAD and Slack to function and then the employees vacation in Miami, the US still benefits despite the final product being produced elsewhere.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
What fraction of the US$500M do you think those benefits to the US might add up to?
- chairmanwow1 5y ago
  According to the Census Bureau, the trade balance between the US <==> Netherlands is +$17B in the US's favor [0]. This seems to support OP's point. [0] https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4210.html https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4210.html
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    Do you believe that this trade imbalance makes it likely that a significant part of the US$500M Bezos reportedly spent on the boat will return to the US? The trade numbers mean that the Netherlands spent about 4.5% of its GDP (US$1T) in trade with the US. That would imply that if the boat fits into those patterns, about 22M of the 500M cost might come back to the USA. One possibility is that despite not having the boatyards in the US that could build such a vessel, the majority or even just a substantial fraction of the components that are used for the boat originate in the USA, and that in reality significantly more of the US$500m will flow back to the USA. I don't know enough about the construction of contemporary mega-yachts to know if that's likely or not.
    - justincormack 5y ago
      The US doesn't need to produce yachts (or this particular type of yacht), thats the whole idea of trade, you specialise in some things not others, and everyone ends up better off. There are a huge number of components in a yacht, many American. And financing and so on.

pauldickwin 5y ago

It's more important to keep in mind that Amazon created hundreds of thousands of new jobs, raised minimum wage in many areas, and brought many people out of absolute poverty. No matter which way you look at it, a net positive rather than a negative.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> No matter which way you look at it, a net positive rather than a negative. You just listed the positives, without any the negatives, and without any sign of actually weighing one against the other. I don't know if Amazon is a net social positive, but it certainly isn't obvious and the answer coudl very well be no despite the positives. ps. I helped create Amazon.
whoaisme 5y ago
"It's more important to keep in mind that the CCP created hundreds of thousands of new jobs, raised minimum wage in many areas, and brought many people out of absolute poverty. No matter which way you look at it, a net positive rather than a negative." Your logic seems highly suspect.
- chairmanwow1 5y ago
  The CCP created hundreds of millions of new jobs and brought hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty. The CCP has its problems, but you must respect that so much economic growth has never happened so quickly for so many people in human history. A lot of people are living happier, more productive, more interesting lives because of the actions of the CCP.
  - mint2 5y ago
    The question is would a similar number jobs have been created had there been another ruling party. It’s like giving trump credit for investing in the vaccine, it’s a near guarantee given America’s economy that the vaccine would have been invested in even if Mickey Mouse had been president. In my mind, neither Biden nor Trump get any credit for the vaccines. China saw massive famines due to the Great Leap Forward, ccp policy, killing millions. How do we know that had a different government been in power the jobs wouldn’t be created, perhaps faster like with Taiwan, and at the same time the famines avoided? So no, I’m not going to give the ccp credit for creating jobs that like as not would have anyway been created.

namdnay 5y ago

We’ll, those $500 million came from all over the world too, so it doesn’t seem surprising to see them being spent all over the world