6 ms·

LN still requires periodic on-chain transactions to close and open payment channels. So either these costs are being passed along to the users in El Salvador or

LN still requires periodic on-chain transactions to close and open payment channels. So either these costs are being passed along to the users in El Salvador or the wallet provider is subsidizing it.

random_kris 5y ago
I run 1 node and in a year I haven't yet had to reopen an existing channel. And 3 channels are good enough for most
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  Are you buying daily essentials using LN, or running a small business? Also how could someone in El Salvador run a node without reliable electricity and internet? Also remember that the hardware cost of a full node is likely more than a month’s wages.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Also how could someone in El Salvador run a node without reliable electricity and internet? A lightning node doesn't need to be on 24/7. To prevent your counterparty from stealing your funds you only need to be online every 2 weeks (or never if you use a watchtower service). Syncing is also fast, so 1 hour of internet access/electricity should allow you to catch up 2 weeks of blockchain history. >Also remember that the hardware cost of a full node is likely more than a month’s wages. Are there no thin wallets for lightning?
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      Right but the node needs to be online anytime you transact, correct?
      - gruez 5y ago
        Yeah that's a fair point. You probably[1] need to be online to make a transaction, but you can potentially have a thin client setup where you communicate with a hosted node somewhere, but the signing and stuff is kept on-device. This allows you to make transactions in the case where power is out, but your phone still has internet access. I don't live in el salvador so I'm not sure what the frequency of power outages is relative to telecommunications outages, but at least in the US cell towers and landlines run on backup power so they're up even when there's a blackout. [1] For maximum convenience it's mandatory, but it's conceivable to update the state of a channel entirely offline. This would allow you to make offline transactions with a node you have a direct channel to, but multi hop transactions (ie. transactions with nodes that you don't have a direct channel to) would still be a hassle.
rawtxapp 5y ago
Channel factories will eventually be able to bundle all these channel open/closes in a single transaction.
waynenilsen 5y ago
One vision is that checking accounts are custodial LN solutions with savings accounts as cold storage. Discussion with the "Bitcoin Beach" people https://stephanlivera.com/episode/279/ https://stephanlivera.com/episode/279/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
gruez 5y ago
While you do need to close/open payment channels if you want to move the funds off the lightning network, I don't really see why you'd need to "periodically" do it. Lightning channels can stay open indefinitely so you can theoretically park your money on there indefinitely.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  I have no clue, so Lightning is Bitcoin without the Bitcoin and blockchain? Without the blockchain how is it different from a MySQL database table?
  - gruez 5y ago
    If someone sends me 1 BTC and the transaction is recorded in mysql, the database operator can revert the transaction and I have zero recourse. That's not possible with lightning. If someone sends me 1 BTC over lightning, then decides to reneg on it by trying to commit an older state of the channel (where they haven't sent me 1 BTC), then my recourse is to rebut that transaction with a newer one.
    - KingOfCoders 5y ago
      Thanks!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

LN still requires periodic on-chain transactions to close and open payment channels. So either these costs are being passed along to the users in El Salvador or the wallet provider is subsidizing it.

random_kris 5y ago

I run 1 node and in a year I haven't yet had to reopen an existing channel. And 3 channels are good enough for most

jasonlaramburu 5y ago
Are you buying daily essentials using LN, or running a small business? Also how could someone in El Salvador run a node without reliable electricity and internet? Also remember that the hardware cost of a full node is likely more than a month’s wages.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Also how could someone in El Salvador run a node without reliable electricity and internet? A lightning node doesn't need to be on 24/7. To prevent your counterparty from stealing your funds you only need to be online every 2 weeks (or never if you use a watchtower service). Syncing is also fast, so 1 hour of internet access/electricity should allow you to catch up 2 weeks of blockchain history. >Also remember that the hardware cost of a full node is likely more than a month’s wages. Are there no thin wallets for lightning?
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    Right but the node needs to be online anytime you transact, correct?
    - gruez 5y ago
      Yeah that's a fair point. You probably[1] need to be online to make a transaction, but you can potentially have a thin client setup where you communicate with a hosted node somewhere, but the signing and stuff is kept on-device. This allows you to make transactions in the case where power is out, but your phone still has internet access. I don't live in el salvador so I'm not sure what the frequency of power outages is relative to telecommunications outages, but at least in the US cell towers and landlines run on backup power so they're up even when there's a blackout. [1] For maximum convenience it's mandatory, but it's conceivable to update the state of a channel entirely offline. This would allow you to make offline transactions with a node you have a direct channel to, but multi hop transactions (ie. transactions with nodes that you don't have a direct channel to) would still be a hassle.

rawtxapp 5y ago

Channel factories will eventually be able to bundle all these channel open/closes in a single transaction.

waynenilsen 5y ago

One vision is that checking accounts are custodial LN solutions with savings accounts as cold storage. Discussion with the "Bitcoin Beach" people https://stephanlivera.com/episode/279/ https://stephanlivera.com/episode/279/

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

gruez 5y ago

While you do need to close/open payment channels if you want to move the funds off the lightning network, I don't really see why you'd need to "periodically" do it. Lightning channels can stay open indefinitely so you can theoretically park your money on there indefinitely.

KingOfCoders 5y ago
I have no clue, so Lightning is Bitcoin without the Bitcoin and blockchain? Without the blockchain how is it different from a MySQL database table?
- gruez 5y ago
  If someone sends me 1 BTC and the transaction is recorded in mysql, the database operator can revert the transaction and I have zero recourse. That's not possible with lightning. If someone sends me 1 BTC over lightning, then decides to reneg on it by trying to commit an older state of the channel (where they haven't sent me 1 BTC), then my recourse is to rebut that transaction with a newer one.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    Thanks!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]