4 ms·

To those migrant workers, what they're getting might well be a decent wage. Meanwhile the jobs of "real" Norwegians such as the farmers you mention and their su

by simonh 5y ago

To those migrant workers, what they're getting might well be a decent wage. Meanwhile the jobs of "real" Norwegians such as the farmers you mention and their supply chain depend on that business model too. It's funny how depriving foreigners of their livelihood is so often pitched as being for their own good.

lb1lf 5y ago
-Fair point (matter of fact, I considered including a paragraph about that) - but the situation now is that for reasons outside their control, the migrant labour is not available, and the system as is cannot handle either paying the going rate for 'normal' work to fresh hires in that sector OR find enough 'real' (for lack of a better term) Norwegians willing -or even able to- to accept work at the wage offered. For instance, with wages being as they are, many unemployed people would get less payout working full time in the agricultural sector than they would just sitting at home receiving unemployment benefits (at slightly less than 2/3 of their former wage). The result being, of course, that whatever labour does show up tends to be less than fully motivated, adding to the employers' woes and reluctance to hire them in the first place. I don't mind migrant labour at all; what I do mind is the idea that when the labour pool shrinks drastically, employers still try to avoid the obvious solution to attract labour - by increasing wages, if only temporarily. These are extraordinary times (one can but hope), and extraordinary short-term measures to counter that doesn't seem unreasonable.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Seasonal migrant workers in UK agricultural sector often make next to nothing and are seriously misled and exploited, to the point where I think it should be considered fraud. We recruit folks from Romania promising them a decent wage, say $10 and hour, and they are typically naive folks straight out of school. Part of the contract is that they are provided with lodging, food, etc. Then they realise that after getting charged $50 for living in a tent and other "charges" they actually make like $10 a day. The sceme basically provided a steady supply of serfs to pick fruit, and noone in britain would sign up for this. Other cases are less egrigeous, but even in skilled work, the employee may realise the opportunity is not great, but depends on the job for visa and so decide to put up with it untill they can get permanent right to stay. Its not a terrible deal, but it wouldnt work for 'natives'
- simonh 5y ago
  Oh I understand there are abuses, but what we need to do is crack down on those abuses. Address the actual problem. Too often they're used as an excuse to justify much broader action. I have skin in this game because I'm married to a former migrant worker who started off over here working in restaurants and coffee shops, and have a niece who's currently here in the UK as a student. She completes her studies this summer and is taking up her 2 year work visa for graduates.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    Most migrant workers, especially those from outside the EU, consider seasonal/migrant work and studying as a stepping stone to residence and later citizenship. They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them. Its basically the price to pay for a shot at first world lifestyle. The last thing most of them want is a crackdown.
    - simonh 5y ago
      It very much depends on what you're cracking down on. Extortion, deceptive practices, human trafficking, modern slavery sure. Students working in coffee shops? Not so much, but these issues are often deliberately conflated.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      "They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them" Deportation doesn't come into this, that's only relevant once you've broken the law or overstayed your visa. The game is about meeting criteria for a visa route, and doing seasonal work does not help in any way. Having a UK degree enables you to get a job here easier, but thats about it. In UK, if you are switching from a short-term to long-term visa you have to leave the country and apply for a visa again from outside the country. Even if you are applying from inside the country, the home office does not hesitate to reject applications for the tiniest reasons. Once that happens, some people might go to court if they have the money and ground to dispute the decision, if your lot in your home country is really bad you might stay illegally, but for the vast majority neither option is worth it and they move on. Whether you are pro or against immigration, it's unclear why unscurpulous employer should be the ones to benefit from this arrangement

by simonh 5y ago

lb1lf 5y ago

-Fair point (matter of fact, I considered including a paragraph about that) - but the situation now is that for reasons outside their control, the migrant labour is not available, and the system as is cannot handle either paying the going rate for 'normal' work to fresh hires in that sector OR find enough 'real' (for lack of a better term) Norwegians willing -or even able to- to accept work at the wage offered. For instance, with wages being as they are, many unemployed people would get less payout working full time in the agricultural sector than they would just sitting at home receiving unemployment benefits (at slightly less than 2/3 of their former wage). The result being, of course, that whatever labour does show up tends to be less than fully motivated, adding to the employers' woes and reluctance to hire them in the first place. I don't mind migrant labour at all; what I do mind is the idea that when the labour pool shrinks drastically, employers still try to avoid the obvious solution to attract labour - by increasing wages, if only temporarily. These are extraordinary times (one can but hope), and extraordinary short-term measures to counter that doesn't seem unreasonable.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

Seasonal migrant workers in UK agricultural sector often make next to nothing and are seriously misled and exploited, to the point where I think it should be considered fraud. We recruit folks from Romania promising them a decent wage, say $10 and hour, and they are typically naive folks straight out of school. Part of the contract is that they are provided with lodging, food, etc. Then they realise that after getting charged $50 for living in a tent and other "charges" they actually make like $10 a day. The sceme basically provided a steady supply of serfs to pick fruit, and noone in britain would sign up for this. Other cases are less egrigeous, but even in skilled work, the employee may realise the opportunity is not great, but depends on the job for visa and so decide to put up with it untill they can get permanent right to stay. Its not a terrible deal, but it wouldnt work for 'natives'

simonh 5y ago
Oh I understand there are abuses, but what we need to do is crack down on those abuses. Address the actual problem. Too often they're used as an excuse to justify much broader action. I have skin in this game because I'm married to a former migrant worker who started off over here working in restaurants and coffee shops, and have a niece who's currently here in the UK as a student. She completes her studies this summer and is taking up her 2 year work visa for graduates.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  Most migrant workers, especially those from outside the EU, consider seasonal/migrant work and studying as a stepping stone to residence and later citizenship. They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them. Its basically the price to pay for a shot at first world lifestyle. The last thing most of them want is a crackdown.
  - simonh 5y ago
    It very much depends on what you're cracking down on. Extortion, deceptive practices, human trafficking, modern slavery sure. Students working in coffee shops? Not so much, but these issues are often deliberately conflated.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them" Deportation doesn't come into this, that's only relevant once you've broken the law or overstayed your visa. The game is about meeting criteria for a visa route, and doing seasonal work does not help in any way. Having a UK degree enables you to get a job here easier, but thats about it. In UK, if you are switching from a short-term to long-term visa you have to leave the country and apply for a visa again from outside the country. Even if you are applying from inside the country, the home office does not hesitate to reject applications for the tiniest reasons. Once that happens, some people might go to court if they have the money and ground to dispute the decision, if your lot in your home country is really bad you might stay illegally, but for the vast majority neither option is worth it and they move on. Whether you are pro or against immigration, it's unclear why unscurpulous employer should be the ones to benefit from this arrangement