3 ms·

-In all fairness, though, the latter approach isn't unique to the US; Norwegian papers have run a lot of stories lately about business X or Y being up in arms a

by lb1lf 5y ago

-In all fairness, though, the latter approach isn't unique to the US; Norwegian papers have run a lot of stories lately about business X or Y being up in arms about the labour shortage, amplified by COVID because of travel restrictions limiting access to cheap labour from abroad. However the issue isn't really that they cannot find labour - it is that they cannot find labour at a cost which makes their current business model sustainable. (Mostly an issue in labour intensive, seasonal sectors relying on unskilled labour - agriculture, aquaculture, restaurants...) Essentially, the gripe is 'If we paid our employees a decent wage, we'd be out of business.' Sigh.

simonh 5y ago
To those migrant workers, what they're getting might well be a decent wage. Meanwhile the jobs of "real" Norwegians such as the farmers you mention and their supply chain depend on that business model too. It's funny how depriving foreigners of their livelihood is so often pitched as being for their own good.
- lb1lf 5y ago
  -Fair point (matter of fact, I considered including a paragraph about that) - but the situation now is that for reasons outside their control, the migrant labour is not available, and the system as is cannot handle either paying the going rate for 'normal' work to fresh hires in that sector OR find enough 'real' (for lack of a better term) Norwegians willing -or even able to- to accept work at the wage offered. For instance, with wages being as they are, many unemployed people would get less payout working full time in the agricultural sector than they would just sitting at home receiving unemployment benefits (at slightly less than 2/3 of their former wage). The result being, of course, that whatever labour does show up tends to be less than fully motivated, adding to the employers' woes and reluctance to hire them in the first place. I don't mind migrant labour at all; what I do mind is the idea that when the labour pool shrinks drastically, employers still try to avoid the obvious solution to attract labour - by increasing wages, if only temporarily. These are extraordinary times (one can but hope), and extraordinary short-term measures to counter that doesn't seem unreasonable.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Seasonal migrant workers in UK agricultural sector often make next to nothing and are seriously misled and exploited, to the point where I think it should be considered fraud. We recruit folks from Romania promising them a decent wage, say $10 and hour, and they are typically naive folks straight out of school. Part of the contract is that they are provided with lodging, food, etc. Then they realise that after getting charged $50 for living in a tent and other "charges" they actually make like $10 a day. The sceme basically provided a steady supply of serfs to pick fruit, and noone in britain would sign up for this. Other cases are less egrigeous, but even in skilled work, the employee may realise the opportunity is not great, but depends on the job for visa and so decide to put up with it untill they can get permanent right to stay. Its not a terrible deal, but it wouldnt work for 'natives'
  - simonh 5y ago
    Oh I understand there are abuses, but what we need to do is crack down on those abuses. Address the actual problem. Too often they're used as an excuse to justify much broader action. I have skin in this game because I'm married to a former migrant worker who started off over here working in restaurants and coffee shops, and have a niece who's currently here in the UK as a student. She completes her studies this summer and is taking up her 2 year work visa for graduates.
    - throwaway210222 5y ago
      Most migrant workers, especially those from outside the EU, consider seasonal/migrant work and studying as a stepping stone to residence and later citizenship. They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them. Its basically the price to pay for a shot at first world lifestyle. The last thing most of them want is a crackdown.
      - simonh 5y ago
        It very much depends on what you're cracking down on. Extortion, deceptive practices, human trafficking, modern slavery sure. Students working in coffee shops? Not so much, but these issues are often deliberately conflated.

by lb1lf 5y ago

simonh 5y ago

To those migrant workers, what they're getting might well be a decent wage. Meanwhile the jobs of "real" Norwegians such as the farmers you mention and their supply chain depend on that business model too. It's funny how depriving foreigners of their livelihood is so often pitched as being for their own good.

lb1lf 5y ago
-Fair point (matter of fact, I considered including a paragraph about that) - but the situation now is that for reasons outside their control, the migrant labour is not available, and the system as is cannot handle either paying the going rate for 'normal' work to fresh hires in that sector OR find enough 'real' (for lack of a better term) Norwegians willing -or even able to- to accept work at the wage offered. For instance, with wages being as they are, many unemployed people would get less payout working full time in the agricultural sector than they would just sitting at home receiving unemployment benefits (at slightly less than 2/3 of their former wage). The result being, of course, that whatever labour does show up tends to be less than fully motivated, adding to the employers' woes and reluctance to hire them in the first place. I don't mind migrant labour at all; what I do mind is the idea that when the labour pool shrinks drastically, employers still try to avoid the obvious solution to attract labour - by increasing wages, if only temporarily. These are extraordinary times (one can but hope), and extraordinary short-term measures to counter that doesn't seem unreasonable.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Seasonal migrant workers in UK agricultural sector often make next to nothing and are seriously misled and exploited, to the point where I think it should be considered fraud. We recruit folks from Romania promising them a decent wage, say $10 and hour, and they are typically naive folks straight out of school. Part of the contract is that they are provided with lodging, food, etc. Then they realise that after getting charged $50 for living in a tent and other "charges" they actually make like $10 a day. The sceme basically provided a steady supply of serfs to pick fruit, and noone in britain would sign up for this. Other cases are less egrigeous, but even in skilled work, the employee may realise the opportunity is not great, but depends on the job for visa and so decide to put up with it untill they can get permanent right to stay. Its not a terrible deal, but it wouldnt work for 'natives'
- simonh 5y ago
  Oh I understand there are abuses, but what we need to do is crack down on those abuses. Address the actual problem. Too often they're used as an excuse to justify much broader action. I have skin in this game because I'm married to a former migrant worker who started off over here working in restaurants and coffee shops, and have a niece who's currently here in the UK as a student. She completes her studies this summer and is taking up her 2 year work visa for graduates.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    Most migrant workers, especially those from outside the EU, consider seasonal/migrant work and studying as a stepping stone to residence and later citizenship. They all know that once they are inside the borders, its harder for the authorities to deport them. Its basically the price to pay for a shot at first world lifestyle. The last thing most of them want is a crackdown.
    - simonh 5y ago
      It very much depends on what you're cracking down on. Extortion, deceptive practices, human trafficking, modern slavery sure. Students working in coffee shops? Not so much, but these issues are often deliberately conflated.