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> To many others, the fundamental end goal of taxation is to fund the government. But isn't the purpose of a democratic government to keep society functional a

> To many others, the fundamental end goal of taxation is to fund the government. But isn't the purpose of a democratic government to keep society functional and peaceful?

bhupy 5y ago
It certainly is, but then the next debate is whether the existence of rich people precludes a society from being functional and peaceful. I appreciate that you may believe that the mere presence of rich people destabilizes society, and therefore the goal should be to make the rich poorer. But you ought to know that many others don't buy into that belief, and in fact have built perfectly functional societies based around the theory that it's okay for there to be rich people as long as the poor are well taken care of. Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the US, no wealth tax, and levies broad-based taxes on the middle class. The top marginal tax rate kicks in at 1.5 times the average wage, whereas in the US the top marginal tax rate kicks in at 9.2 times the average wage. And yet, you might probably define Swedish society as "functional and peaceful".
- lifeformed 5y ago
  I don't think the existence of superrich people in a society necessarily directly reduces the functionality and peace of that society, but instead is a symptom of broader issues. I think when it becomes a direct problem is when the superrich are allowed to use their wealth to strongly influence the system itself, opening feedback loops that let them enrich themselves. It's a bigger issue in the US since policymaking is strongly influenced by those with money.
  - bhupy 5y ago
    > It's a bigger issue in the US since policymaking is strongly influenced by those with money. This is a popular talking point, but one that has thus far been soundly refuted by empirical results. https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1401596911522615299 https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1401596911522615299 No amount of money will install a political leader that cannot win votes. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2605401 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2605401 https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/money-and-elections-a-complicated-love-story/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/money-and-elections-a-c...
    - lifeformed 5y ago
      Not elections, policymaking. The influence of lobbyists and corporate donations on how laws are formed and applied is well known and substantial.
      - bhupy 5y ago
        First of all, policymaking is downstream of elections. Second of all, the influence of lobbyists on how laws are formed is "well known" as a talking point, and nothing else. There aren't any hard empirical studies that draw a causal line. In fact, to really drive home that point, I'll reiterate a sentence I wrote in a previous reply to you, but with a minor addition: Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the US, no wealth tax, and levies broad-based taxes on the middle class. The top marginal tax rate kicks in at 1.5 times the average wage, whereas in the US the top marginal tax rate kicks in at 9.2 times the average wage. Lobbying on policymakers is unregulated (http://www.aalep.eu/lobbying-landscape-sweden http://www.aalep.eu/lobbying-landscape-sweden). And yet, you might probably define Swedish society as "functional and peaceful".

> To many others, the fundamental end goal of taxation is to fund the government. But isn't the purpose of a democratic government to keep society functional and peaceful?

bhupy 5y ago

It certainly is, but then the next debate is whether the existence of rich people precludes a society from being functional and peaceful. I appreciate that you may believe that the mere presence of rich people destabilizes society, and therefore the goal should be to make the rich poorer. But you ought to know that many others don't buy into that belief, and in fact have built perfectly functional societies based around the theory that it's okay for there to be rich people as long as the poor are well taken care of. Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the US, no wealth tax, and levies broad-based taxes on the middle class. The top marginal tax rate kicks in at 1.5 times the average wage, whereas in the US the top marginal tax rate kicks in at 9.2 times the average wage. And yet, you might probably define Swedish society as "functional and peaceful".

lifeformed 5y ago
I don't think the existence of superrich people in a society necessarily directly reduces the functionality and peace of that society, but instead is a symptom of broader issues. I think when it becomes a direct problem is when the superrich are allowed to use their wealth to strongly influence the system itself, opening feedback loops that let them enrich themselves. It's a bigger issue in the US since policymaking is strongly influenced by those with money.
- bhupy 5y ago
  > It's a bigger issue in the US since policymaking is strongly influenced by those with money. This is a popular talking point, but one that has thus far been soundly refuted by empirical results. https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1401596911522615299 https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1401596911522615299 No amount of money will install a political leader that cannot win votes. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2605401 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2605401 https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/money-and-elections-a-complicated-love-story/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/money-and-elections-a-c...
  - lifeformed 5y ago
    Not elections, policymaking. The influence of lobbyists and corporate donations on how laws are formed and applied is well known and substantial.
    - bhupy 5y ago
      First of all, policymaking is downstream of elections. Second of all, the influence of lobbyists on how laws are formed is "well known" as a talking point, and nothing else. There aren't any hard empirical studies that draw a causal line. In fact, to really drive home that point, I'll reiterate a sentence I wrote in a previous reply to you, but with a minor addition: Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the US, no wealth tax, and levies broad-based taxes on the middle class. The top marginal tax rate kicks in at 1.5 times the average wage, whereas in the US the top marginal tax rate kicks in at 9.2 times the average wage. Lobbying on policymakers is unregulated (http://www.aalep.eu/lobbying-landscape-sweden http://www.aalep.eu/lobbying-landscape-sweden). And yet, you might probably define Swedish society as "functional and peaceful".