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"This is why it is a mistake to insist dogmatically on the 'work/life balance'. In fact, the phrase 'work/life' alone embodies an error: it assumes that work an

"This is why it is a mistake to insist dogmatically on the 'work/life balance'. In fact, the phrase 'work/life' alone embodies an error: it assumes that work and life are distinct." A beaten horse if there is one. It's not a matter of being dogmatic or seeing the 6 sides of a die. It's that, as PG says between the lines, for most people there is no particular excitement about work. For some it depends on the working conditions, for many it's their personality. I don't look for any particular excitement at work: I'm happy to work a few hours a day for a great paycheck on something I more or less enjoy. PG, who writes as someone who has had overall a terrific time at work, by focusing only on work misses the larger behavioral point. Let me offer an example: I don't know these days, but looking at PG's photos from a few years ago, I can say with certainty that he was, and I hope for his sake that he is no longer, in not very good physical shape. I've worked out all my life, playing individual and team sports, in the gym alone and with others, and for me exercising and playing sports has overall been tremendous fun and has contributed greatly to who I am, what I've done, and what I'm doing. But I suspect for PG, to go to the gym or sweat or do anything physical has to be unpleasant, if not a nightmare. And I'm fine with that, he'd rather be doing other things, he's probably (I'm speculating here) not particularly athletically gifted, and since he's a very smart person, he can probably come up with 15 different rationalizations as to why he avoids doing enough physical activity to look better, feel better, and greatly reduce his risk of getting sick now and in the future. But, and I don't think I'm exaggerating here, it's likely that he simply doesn't like to exercise and there's no narrative about Olympic medals, great feats of physical endurance, or any dream of looking like a Greek god that would convince him to become a gym rat. Similarly, there is no Apple story that could push me toward a 12-hour workday (or whatever time is being talked about) working for others (assuming I can avoid doing so)..

Lammy 5y ago
> It's that, as PG says between the lines, for most people there is no particular excitement about work. It's because "most people" earn money by selling their labor out of a finite 24-hour day, but PG is a Venture Capitalist whose capital works 24/7.
- borroka 5y ago
  But it's not just PG, who at this point I doubt cares much about ROI, the work/balance debate has been going on since the dawn of time. Every time after one of the surgeries I had, my main concern was not how long it would take to get back to work, but how long it would take to get back to training. And I don't get paid to work out, but I absolutely love it. I like looking good, feeling good, feeling capable. When I miss a workout, I feel guilty. The other guys at the gym show up once every 3 weeks and probably think I'm crazy. And I instinctively think they are slackers with no self-respect. But upon further reflection, I say that we are just different people. And on the work side, some people like to work or be a part of something bigger than themselves (Apple, Steve Jobs, Coinbase!), or interestingly enough, just be busy with paperwork.
  - hrishi 5y ago
    Good point, and it makes me wonder if it's just a personality thing. Some of the best people I know are never obsessed with anything, and try to maintain things in moderation, while I (and many others) find it easier to be obsessed and driven in a few things, often to the exclusion of other things.
- eloff 5y ago
  Wow, that's spectacularly missing the point of the essay. Did you even read it?
eloff 5y ago
It's an interesting point that you make, there are definitely differences in personality in how we approach work. I think you could learn to like putting in 12 hour days if you were working on something that you enjoyed sufficiently that it didn't feel like work. I feel that way sometimes with side projects ( read attempts to bootstrap a software business.) Sometimes I have to drag myself away from it, and I think about it when I'm showering, eating, on vacation, or even sometimes during sex (that last one doesn't end well.) I was like PG in that I never played sports or did exercise, and was terrible at both, but now I'm a gym rat. So people can change.
- borroka 5y ago
  People can change, but in the end it's all probabilities and statistical distributions: it's much easier to be constantly exercising all our lives or working hard all our lives than to have a Damascus moment and radically change our ways (and it's much easier to move in the direction of less, rather than more, effort or commitment). I don't want my comment to be seen as dunking on PG, who I only know through his work, which we all respect if not admire. But I remember seeing a picture of PG taken at one of the YC events a few years ago and immediately thinking " this physical condition is approaching heart-attack risk". From reading his tweets, from which it's clear how much he loves his kids, it's easy to come to the conclusion that we all have some sort of ongoing cognitive dissonance and convenient rationalizations for whatever behavior we support or defend. I could make up all kinds of rationalizations for why work-life balance is important and spending time with our families is fulfilling and cite that shaky study about people on their deathbeds who say they regret spending too much time at work and not enough time with their loved ones. Yes, a more exciting work environment, with more agency, surrounded by brilliant people is more inviting (for some!) than working in a top-down, no-agency workplace. But most of all, I confess that I don't like to spend too much time working, which doesn't mean I love not doing anything, but that I don’t like working the way we normally think of it, which can include: managers, deadlines, commuting, finding someone to cover for us when we have to go to the hospital when a parent isn't feeling well, performance reviews, or the usual start-up issues we all know.
  - eloff 5y ago
sheepybloke 5y ago
I had a mentor at GE who loved this line, and her big point was less about the excitement and more about engaging and living in the moment. When we make a strong split between work and life, we tend to just check out and coast, to not engage and be present during work because you feel like it doesn't matter. Her big push was that it's all life. Work is a big portion of your time, so if you ignore it you're missing a huge portion of what finite time you have. Hearing it that way made a huge impact on me. With a workout analogy, it's the difference between exercise and a planned workout. With exercise, there's not much plan or engagement; you might run or lift a few weights absent-mindedly. By engaging with it, you can get much more out of your effort, planning to workout different muscle groups or help increase endurance.
- borroka 5y ago
  "Her big push was that it's all life. Work is a big portion of your time, so if you ignore it you're missing a huge portion of what finite time you have. Hearing it that way made a huge impact on me." I disagree. It is not black and white. The options are not between working 14 hours a day or not working. There is a huge space where someone can find the best position for them. I am one of those lunatics who between making x for 3 hours a day and x for 14 hours a day, prefers to make x (it is not a typo, it is the same money) working 3 hours a day. Call me crazy. Then, if I want to work more or I get "wired in" for 3 days, fine. But another day I may want to go fishing. Most of us, myself included, are cogs in a machine in the workplace and thinking otherwise is delusional. Getting fired is the best lesson one can take from work. Which does not mean one has to be unprofessional or a slacker. I am very professional, I take care of people working with me, and I take pride in a good presentation, piece of code or model. After all, if you want a job badly done, it is counterintuitively not the worst idea to give the job to someone with a strong passion for the job or a volunteer. At least, that has been my experience. If we continue my analogy with sports, I have found that "getting the job done" is not strongly correlated with having the most passion for the activity. Not not having none, to be clear, just not the strongest. Now, if someone finds a job with agency, building an infra that have they have been thinking about forever, with a fantastic upside and little downside, that's another ballgame. That's the alignment of personality and work that make work feel like play. And someone may say, if you don't have that blend of work and life is because you did not find the right job for you. Which is equivalent to say that people who are crashing on the couch with a bag of Doritos every night just have to find the right sports for them.

Lammy 5y ago

> It's that, as PG says between the lines, for most people there is no particular excitement about work. It's because "most people" earn money by selling their labor out of a finite 24-hour day, but PG is a Venture Capitalist whose capital works 24/7.

borroka 5y ago
But it's not just PG, who at this point I doubt cares much about ROI, the work/balance debate has been going on since the dawn of time. Every time after one of the surgeries I had, my main concern was not how long it would take to get back to work, but how long it would take to get back to training. And I don't get paid to work out, but I absolutely love it. I like looking good, feeling good, feeling capable. When I miss a workout, I feel guilty. The other guys at the gym show up once every 3 weeks and probably think I'm crazy. And I instinctively think they are slackers with no self-respect. But upon further reflection, I say that we are just different people. And on the work side, some people like to work or be a part of something bigger than themselves (Apple, Steve Jobs, Coinbase!), or interestingly enough, just be busy with paperwork.
- hrishi 5y ago
  Good point, and it makes me wonder if it's just a personality thing. Some of the best people I know are never obsessed with anything, and try to maintain things in moderation, while I (and many others) find it easier to be obsessed and driven in a few things, often to the exclusion of other things.
eloff 5y ago
Wow, that's spectacularly missing the point of the essay. Did you even read it?

eloff 5y ago

It's an interesting point that you make, there are definitely differences in personality in how we approach work. I think you could learn to like putting in 12 hour days if you were working on something that you enjoyed sufficiently that it didn't feel like work. I feel that way sometimes with side projects ( read attempts to bootstrap a software business.) Sometimes I have to drag myself away from it, and I think about it when I'm showering, eating, on vacation, or even sometimes during sex (that last one doesn't end well.) I was like PG in that I never played sports or did exercise, and was terrible at both, but now I'm a gym rat. So people can change.

borroka 5y ago
People can change, but in the end it's all probabilities and statistical distributions: it's much easier to be constantly exercising all our lives or working hard all our lives than to have a Damascus moment and radically change our ways (and it's much easier to move in the direction of less, rather than more, effort or commitment). I don't want my comment to be seen as dunking on PG, who I only know through his work, which we all respect if not admire. But I remember seeing a picture of PG taken at one of the YC events a few years ago and immediately thinking " this physical condition is approaching heart-attack risk". From reading his tweets, from which it's clear how much he loves his kids, it's easy to come to the conclusion that we all have some sort of ongoing cognitive dissonance and convenient rationalizations for whatever behavior we support or defend. I could make up all kinds of rationalizations for why work-life balance is important and spending time with our families is fulfilling and cite that shaky study about people on their deathbeds who say they regret spending too much time at work and not enough time with their loved ones. Yes, a more exciting work environment, with more agency, surrounded by brilliant people is more inviting (for some!) than working in a top-down, no-agency workplace. But most of all, I confess that I don't like to spend too much time working, which doesn't mean I love not doing anything, but that I don’t like working the way we normally think of it, which can include: managers, deadlines, commuting, finding someone to cover for us when we have to go to the hospital when a parent isn't feeling well, performance reviews, or the usual start-up issues we all know.
- eloff 5y ago

sheepybloke 5y ago

I had a mentor at GE who loved this line, and her big point was less about the excitement and more about engaging and living in the moment. When we make a strong split between work and life, we tend to just check out and coast, to not engage and be present during work because you feel like it doesn't matter. Her big push was that it's all life. Work is a big portion of your time, so if you ignore it you're missing a huge portion of what finite time you have. Hearing it that way made a huge impact on me. With a workout analogy, it's the difference between exercise and a planned workout. With exercise, there's not much plan or engagement; you might run or lift a few weights absent-mindedly. By engaging with it, you can get much more out of your effort, planning to workout different muscle groups or help increase endurance.

borroka 5y ago
"Her big push was that it's all life. Work is a big portion of your time, so if you ignore it you're missing a huge portion of what finite time you have. Hearing it that way made a huge impact on me." I disagree. It is not black and white. The options are not between working 14 hours a day or not working. There is a huge space where someone can find the best position for them. I am one of those lunatics who between making x for 3 hours a day and x for 14 hours a day, prefers to make x (it is not a typo, it is the same money) working 3 hours a day. Call me crazy. Then, if I want to work more or I get "wired in" for 3 days, fine. But another day I may want to go fishing. Most of us, myself included, are cogs in a machine in the workplace and thinking otherwise is delusional. Getting fired is the best lesson one can take from work. Which does not mean one has to be unprofessional or a slacker. I am very professional, I take care of people working with me, and I take pride in a good presentation, piece of code or model. After all, if you want a job badly done, it is counterintuitively not the worst idea to give the job to someone with a strong passion for the job or a volunteer. At least, that has been my experience. If we continue my analogy with sports, I have found that "getting the job done" is not strongly correlated with having the most passion for the activity. Not not having none, to be clear, just not the strongest. Now, if someone finds a job with agency, building an infra that have they have been thinking about forever, with a fantastic upside and little downside, that's another ballgame. That's the alignment of personality and work that make work feel like play. And someone may say, if you don't have that blend of work and life is because you did not find the right job for you. Which is equivalent to say that people who are crashing on the couch with a bag of Doritos every night just have to find the right sports for them.