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Data aggregated per month is very different from data aggregated per hour or per minute. You can infer far more personal information from the latter.

by shkkmo 5y ago

supernova87a 5y ago
I think it's only a matter of degree. And at every level someone can complain. So where do you draw the line? Watching a meter spin or reading it once a month you can tell if someone is on vacation. Isn't that equally private and personal information?
- shkkmo 5y ago
  It is a matter of degree, but that degree is not small. Anytime you decrease the interval, you need to justify the commensurate loss of privacy. You can't just handwave away these concerns like posters in this thread are doing. A rough inference of which months might involve vacations (data about which is probably already being sold from other sources) is far less invasive than a daily record of your sleep cycle. With the lack of privacy laws in the US, it is pretty much a given that this data will be sold as soon as the private utility companies in the US start collecting it.
  - idiotsecant 5y ago
    ...You say from your personal wiretapping device.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      Which I have the ability to choose when/if I am survieled by by leaving it at home or throwing it in a river.
      - onethought 5y ago
        You can turn your power off too whenever you like.
ribosometronome 5y ago
You can also bill users for peak usage times when electricity is expensive or requires falling back on non-renewable resources for production with hourly data.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  I can think of a number of ways to do that that preserve privacy far better than real-time reporting of power usage.
  - onethought 5y ago
    How can you charge time of use without collecting time of use data?
dragonsky67 5y ago
Do you carry a mobile phone. If so, you have bigger privacy problems than how much power you use per minute.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  That is a trade off that consumers should have the ability to evaluate and decide for themselves.
onethought 5y ago
No you can’t. They don’t know if you have generation or battery capabilities, even if they detect generation capabilities they don’t know how much. With that in mind what could they “infer”? I go weeks without triggering a single bit of usage on my meter. I bet you they aren’t thinking: this guy is mining heaps of crypto.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Yes, they absolutely can. Like with any surveillance technology, there are things you can do to obfuscate your patterns, but that doesn't mean that a broad rollout of the technology won't have a negative privacy impact on most customers.
  - onethought 5y ago
    It’s not obfuscation, if you are concerned about privacy. You can completely hide your usage patterns with a battery or solar/wind generation. Are you honesty making the point that: knowing you used 5 units of power in 1 month (where someone has to walk onto your property and read a number, as is the case in most dumb metered scenarios) is less of a privacy concern than knowing you used .3 of unit of power in the last 15 minutes (without needing to walk onto your property). What am I missing?
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > knowing you used 5 units of power in 1 month (where someone has to walk onto your property and read a number, as is the case in most dumb metered scenarios) is less of a privacy concern than knowing you used .3 of unit of power in the last 15 minutes (without needing to walk onto your property). Personally, I think so for most people. But that depends on how much privacy your property provides from pedestrians and where your meter is located. However, that is orthogonal to the debate since there are other options. Some places allow self reporting and Automated Meter Reading can be done without a smart meter that reports live power usage. I am unsure why you are so vested in arguing that nobody has a legitimate reason to be concerned about this. It is fine if it doesn't bother you, but it is really necessary to paint those with different concerns as irrational?

Data aggregated per month is very different from data aggregated per hour or per minute. You can infer far more personal information from the latter.

by shkkmo 5y ago

Data aggregated per month is very different from data aggregated per hour or per minute. You can infer far more personal information from the latter.

supernova87a 5y ago

I think it's only a matter of degree. And at every level someone can complain. So where do you draw the line? Watching a meter spin or reading it once a month you can tell if someone is on vacation. Isn't that equally private and personal information?

shkkmo 5y ago
It is a matter of degree, but that degree is not small. Anytime you decrease the interval, you need to justify the commensurate loss of privacy. You can't just handwave away these concerns like posters in this thread are doing. A rough inference of which months might involve vacations (data about which is probably already being sold from other sources) is far less invasive than a daily record of your sleep cycle. With the lack of privacy laws in the US, it is pretty much a given that this data will be sold as soon as the private utility companies in the US start collecting it.
- idiotsecant 5y ago
  ...You say from your personal wiretapping device.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    Which I have the ability to choose when/if I am survieled by by leaving it at home or throwing it in a river.
    - onethought 5y ago
      You can turn your power off too whenever you like.

ribosometronome 5y ago

You can also bill users for peak usage times when electricity is expensive or requires falling back on non-renewable resources for production with hourly data.

shkkmo 5y ago
I can think of a number of ways to do that that preserve privacy far better than real-time reporting of power usage.
- onethought 5y ago
  How can you charge time of use without collecting time of use data?

dragonsky67 5y ago

Do you carry a mobile phone. If so, you have bigger privacy problems than how much power you use per minute.

shkkmo 5y ago
That is a trade off that consumers should have the ability to evaluate and decide for themselves.

onethought 5y ago

No you can’t. They don’t know if you have generation or battery capabilities, even if they detect generation capabilities they don’t know how much. With that in mind what could they “infer”? I go weeks without triggering a single bit of usage on my meter. I bet you they aren’t thinking: this guy is mining heaps of crypto.

shkkmo 5y ago
Yes, they absolutely can. Like with any surveillance technology, there are things you can do to obfuscate your patterns, but that doesn't mean that a broad rollout of the technology won't have a negative privacy impact on most customers.
- onethought 5y ago
  It’s not obfuscation, if you are concerned about privacy. You can completely hide your usage patterns with a battery or solar/wind generation. Are you honesty making the point that: knowing you used 5 units of power in 1 month (where someone has to walk onto your property and read a number, as is the case in most dumb metered scenarios) is less of a privacy concern than knowing you used .3 of unit of power in the last 15 minutes (without needing to walk onto your property). What am I missing?
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > knowing you used 5 units of power in 1 month (where someone has to walk onto your property and read a number, as is the case in most dumb metered scenarios) is less of a privacy concern than knowing you used .3 of unit of power in the last 15 minutes (without needing to walk onto your property). Personally, I think so for most people. But that depends on how much privacy your property provides from pedestrians and where your meter is located. However, that is orthogonal to the debate since there are other options. Some places allow self reporting and Automated Meter Reading can be done without a smart meter that reports live power usage. I am unsure why you are so vested in arguing that nobody has a legitimate reason to be concerned about this. It is fine if it doesn't bother you, but it is really necessary to paint those with different concerns as irrational?