10 ms·

It blows my mind that we know this is a massive problem and yet here we are frogs boiling slowly, arguing.

AceJohnny2 5y ago
It's a great (if tragic) demonstration of the limits of human governance. We cannot do long-term (let alone multi-generational) planning. But maybe that's just my Western experience.
- mcculley 5y ago
  Even if individual countries or cultures could do long term planning, myopic cultures can harm them. We would have to have a global EPA. We have a global Tragedy of the Commons.
- fallingfrog 5y ago
  The whole political system is designed to deflect and diffuse popular demands, not to be responsive to them. We could design better political systems. But, if you want a responsive, accountable political system, you cannot also maintain enclaves of extreme wealth, power and privilege. People wouldn’t put up with it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissi...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pavlov 5y ago
Look at Bitcoin and despair. The frogs have decided that those nifty bubbles in the water are actually money and are excitedly turning up the heat.
- bamboozled 5y ago
  Why do people fixate on bitcoin? It's burning fossil fuel, transport and deforestation that causes climate change. For all you know, the worlds biggest miners are using renewable energy? I mean that could be theoretically possible.
  - pavlov 5y ago
    > "For all you know, the worlds biggest miners are using renewable energy? I mean that could be theoretically possible." We know they're not. Bitcoin miners seek out the cheapest energy, which is mostly fossil. We know that even decommissioned fossil fuel power plants are being reopened for this purpose. That's not some kind of SJW propaganda, you can read about it in the Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-life-to-old-fossil-fuel-power-plants-11621594803 https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-l...
    - bamboozled 5y ago
      Solar is the cheapest form of energy generation in 2021 [1], it's for political reasons fossil fuels are a cheaper. You should be more concerned that your government hasn't banned coal power generation. [1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-01-03/solar-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-how-much-will-it-matter/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-01-03/solar-now-chea...
      - pavlov 5y ago
        If solar was the cheapest, then Bitcoin would be replacing other actually productive energy consumers and forcing them to fossil sources. So getting rid of Bitcoin would still be positive.
        bamboozled 5y ago
        You can't just get rid of people doing calculations on computers, it's not going to happen without some pretty authoritarian, dystopian hell. The problem needs to be solved at the source, burning fossil fuels needs to be stopped, today!
wait_a_minute 5y ago
Pay more attention to renewable energy, we are making significant progress over the last 10 years. Now if only we could get China on board so those coal mines stop increasing global emissions…
remir 5y ago
People manifest in the streets because they have to put on a mask to stop the spread of COVID. A simple mask is seen as anti-freedom. Now, just so we're clear, I'm not judging these people and I don't want to polarize COVID and the government response in any ways. But if wearing a mask is seen as restrictive, imagine the societal changes required to truly address climate change. Folks, the party is over. The response to climate change will make COVID measures seem like a day at the water park.
- pirate787 5y ago
  Nope. For about the same cost as the Covid stimulus we could have converted the entire US electrical grid to renewables.
  - idiotsecant 5y ago
    That's not even within an order of magnitude of being true. Renewables are, with some partial exceptions, not dispatchable energy sources - you need massive amounts of storage and transmission capacity. Solar, for example, has a capacity factor in the neighborhood of 10%. That means that for every watt of natural gas generation you want to replace you need 10 watts of geographically distributed solar energy with storage and massively upgraded transmission networks to move all that power around. You could maybe start to work on a china-style HVDC network with that kind of money but that's not even close to all you need to integrate renewables on a massive scale. Fixing the american power grid for the challenges of the next 500 years is a multi-generational project that will cost way more than a few trillion dollars.
knodi123 5y ago
In the famous frog-boiling experiment you're referring to, the frogs were actually lobotomized before they were put in the pot. Which makes your analogy even more accurate, IMO.

It's a great (if tragic) demonstration of the limits of human governance. We cannot do long-term (let alone multi-generational) planning. But maybe that's just my Western experience.

mcculley 5y ago
Even if individual countries or cultures could do long term planning, myopic cultures can harm them. We would have to have a global EPA. We have a global Tragedy of the Commons.
fallingfrog 5y ago
The whole political system is designed to deflect and diffuse popular demands, not to be responsive to them. We could design better political systems. But, if you want a responsive, accountable political system, you cannot also maintain enclaves of extreme wealth, power and privilege. People wouldn’t put up with it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wait_a_minute 5y ago
https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissi...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pavlov 5y ago

Look at Bitcoin and despair. The frogs have decided that those nifty bubbles in the water are actually money and are excitedly turning up the heat.

bamboozled 5y ago
Why do people fixate on bitcoin? It's burning fossil fuel, transport and deforestation that causes climate change. For all you know, the worlds biggest miners are using renewable energy? I mean that could be theoretically possible.
- pavlov 5y ago
  > "For all you know, the worlds biggest miners are using renewable energy? I mean that could be theoretically possible." We know they're not. Bitcoin miners seek out the cheapest energy, which is mostly fossil. We know that even decommissioned fossil fuel power plants are being reopened for this purpose. That's not some kind of SJW propaganda, you can read about it in the Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-life-to-old-fossil-fuel-power-plants-11621594803 https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-l...
  - bamboozled 5y ago
    Solar is the cheapest form of energy generation in 2021 [1], it's for political reasons fossil fuels are a cheaper. You should be more concerned that your government hasn't banned coal power generation. [1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-01-03/solar-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-how-much-will-it-matter/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-01-03/solar-now-chea...
    - pavlov 5y ago
      If solar was the cheapest, then Bitcoin would be replacing other actually productive energy consumers and forcing them to fossil sources. So getting rid of Bitcoin would still be positive.
      - bamboozled 5y ago
        You can't just get rid of people doing calculations on computers, it's not going to happen without some pretty authoritarian, dystopian hell. The problem needs to be solved at the source, burning fossil fuels needs to be stopped, today!

wait_a_minute 5y ago

Pay more attention to renewable energy, we are making significant progress over the last 10 years. Now if only we could get China on board so those coal mines stop increasing global emissions…

remir 5y ago

People manifest in the streets because they have to put on a mask to stop the spread of COVID. A simple mask is seen as anti-freedom. Now, just so we're clear, I'm not judging these people and I don't want to polarize COVID and the government response in any ways. But if wearing a mask is seen as restrictive, imagine the societal changes required to truly address climate change. Folks, the party is over. The response to climate change will make COVID measures seem like a day at the water park.

pirate787 5y ago
Nope. For about the same cost as the Covid stimulus we could have converted the entire US electrical grid to renewables.
- idiotsecant 5y ago
  That's not even within an order of magnitude of being true. Renewables are, with some partial exceptions, not dispatchable energy sources - you need massive amounts of storage and transmission capacity. Solar, for example, has a capacity factor in the neighborhood of 10%. That means that for every watt of natural gas generation you want to replace you need 10 watts of geographically distributed solar energy with storage and massively upgraded transmission networks to move all that power around. You could maybe start to work on a china-style HVDC network with that kind of money but that's not even close to all you need to integrate renewables on a massive scale. Fixing the american power grid for the challenges of the next 500 years is a multi-generational project that will cost way more than a few trillion dollars.

knodi123 5y ago

In the famous frog-boiling experiment you're referring to, the frogs were actually lobotomized before they were put in the pot. Which makes your analogy even more accurate, IMO.