4 ms·

But at the end of the day your infrastructure is essentially data not code. Your infrastructure is permanent, it exists even if it isn't being used it has inert

by hpoe 5y ago

But at the end of the day your infrastructure is essentially data not code. Your infrastructure is permanent, it exists even if it isn't being used it has inertia. At the end of the day your "infrastructure" is really just an entry in a database of a cloud provider, it is data not code. I think we are seeing things come full circle again where people are finding the limitations of declarative infrastructure tools and decreeing declarative infrastructure dead and moving back to imperative infrastructure tools like Salt or Ansible. Does anyone else feel that the infrastructure tooling environment/space is in the same place the JS world was 5 years ago?

throwaway894345 5y ago
> But at the end of the day your infrastructure is essentially data not code. Your infrastructure is permanent, it exists even if it isn't being used it has inertia. At the end of the day your "infrastructure" is really just an entry in a database of a cloud provider, it is data not code. That may well be true, but it doesn't solve the problem (note also that HTML is just data, but we don't typically expect people to copy/paste the same HTML blob for every blog entry they write nor do we expect them to update each of them when they need to make a change): We often have N very similar, large, complex YAML/HCL/etc objects that we want to manage with Terraform. If we need to make a change to all of them, we have to update N different places. Keeping these in sync is tedious and error prone. So we need to be able to factor out the common code into some reusable unit that accepts the bits that vary as parameters. Terraform's notion of "modules" is a great big acknowledgement of this need, although it's amazing that the whole time they were building this no one thought to themselves "guys, this seems really heavyweight and cumbersome for what ultimately is just a function" (and that general failure to notice that they were accidentally building a fully fledged programming language seems like an apt summary of Terraform's development). Note also that there's nothing special about infrastructure as code here, this is a general application of the DRY principle. > I think we are seeing things come full circle again where people are finding the limitations of declarative infrastructure tools and decreeing declarative infrastructure dead and moving back to imperative infrastructure tools like Salt or Ansible. Just because you're using a programming language doesn't mean you're imperatively updating state. You use a programming language to generate the static configuration (e.g., the YAML) that verbosely describes the desired state of the world that the application engine can then diff against the current state to figure out what changes need to be made. This is sort of what Terraform is doing these days, but by all appearances they didn't realize what they were doing and consequently the programming language they built was predictably awful.
- fierro 5y ago
  excellent summary of the problem.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
tehbeard 5y ago
Side tangent, but I'm curious as to why you list Ansible as imperative, when it seems to be declarative in how you configure a module? Or is this a case of scope? (At the level of a single ansible module, it's config is declarative, but runbooks/roles are imperative? Is it the variable substitution/loop mechanics that make it imperative?)
- randomswede 5y ago
  In Ansible, you declare a set of actions, that are then performed, one by one. Occasionally being skipped, if a certain condition holds true. So, you are basically saying "do this, do that, then do that". In a declarative model, you would say "this is how the end result should look" and the tool would then go off and make that happen, in whatever order its scheduling tools would say. Sort of the difference between Rust on one side, and Prolog on the other (yes, it is possible to get a specific flow of instructions in Prolog, but it is much easier to let the prolog interpreter/compiler to Just Make It Happen Somehow). FWIW, Puppet gets closer to a declarative model, but unfortunately, the last version I played around with seriously was actually quite bad at inferring ordering on its own, so a LOT of work ended up going into "well, A has to happen before B, so let us string a dependency here".
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    I guess I need an example of the declarative model, as I can see the Ansible model in my head and it still looks declarative to me atleast at the singular module level. in Ansible, you say "make sure these packages are installed" and they'll be installed as needed, to match that state, or ignored if already there. Even the file level stuff you can say "make sure this line is in the file" and it either adds it or says "nope, that's already in there". Is it that there's modules that aren't declarative? Sort of the esoteric ones to poke specific cloud infrastructure (though even the few of those I looked at seemed to be declarative if needed).
    - randomswede 5y ago
      It is not declarative. The simple fact that the playbook will ALWAYS be run in the order you specify, even if a later step is (technically) a prerequisite of a previous step, means that you are in an imperative mode. Puppet is declarative, you simply say "these things must, or must not, hold" and a combination of user-declared and inferred dependencies arrange the sequencing, which can be different in each run (as long as the before/after dependencies hold).
polendri 5y ago
It sounds like you're suggesting that there's some inherent reason why your infrastructure definition must have the same structure as the output of that definition (the infrastructure). I agree that the infrastructure is state, but it seems obvious to me that sometimes it requires non-trivial computations to decide on the desired state, something which is best served by code. It's also a false dichotomy IMO that configuration files are the only declarative alternative to imperative tools like Salt/Ansible. You can have declarative code too: my laptop is running NixOS and its system state is defined in code (in a purpose-built language that looks much like a config file). So really I think there are three approaches, not two, each with upsides and downsides which keep us all ping-ponging between them: 1. Config files are ideal for simple use cases, but a mess for complex ones 2. General-purpose programming languages are completely flexible, but allow you to create a huge unmaintainable mess 3. Dedicated declarative languages constrain you enough to mostly provide the best of both config files and code, but then you have to learn a whole new language, one which was probably conceived hastily (I find the Nix language awful honestly) Some people need arbitrary computations to define their infrastructure, so I think pure config files are a non-starter from a purist's perspective. But, so far we haven't been able to come up with a programming language for infrastructure that isn't a mess to use.

by hpoe 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago

> But at the end of the day your infrastructure is essentially data not code. Your infrastructure is permanent, it exists even if it isn't being used it has inertia. At the end of the day your "infrastructure" is really just an entry in a database of a cloud provider, it is data not code. That may well be true, but it doesn't solve the problem (note also that HTML is just data, but we don't typically expect people to copy/paste the same HTML blob for every blog entry they write nor do we expect them to update each of them when they need to make a change): We often have N very similar, large, complex YAML/HCL/etc objects that we want to manage with Terraform. If we need to make a change to all of them, we have to update N different places. Keeping these in sync is tedious and error prone. So we need to be able to factor out the common code into some reusable unit that accepts the bits that vary as parameters. Terraform's notion of "modules" is a great big acknowledgement of this need, although it's amazing that the whole time they were building this no one thought to themselves "guys, this seems really heavyweight and cumbersome for what ultimately is just a function" (and that general failure to notice that they were accidentally building a fully fledged programming language seems like an apt summary of Terraform's development). Note also that there's nothing special about infrastructure as code here, this is a general application of the DRY principle. > I think we are seeing things come full circle again where people are finding the limitations of declarative infrastructure tools and decreeing declarative infrastructure dead and moving back to imperative infrastructure tools like Salt or Ansible. Just because you're using a programming language doesn't mean you're imperatively updating state. You use a programming language to generate the static configuration (e.g., the YAML) that verbosely describes the desired state of the world that the application engine can then diff against the current state to figure out what changes need to be made. This is sort of what Terraform is doing these days, but by all appearances they didn't realize what they were doing and consequently the programming language they built was predictably awful.

fierro 5y ago
excellent summary of the problem.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

tehbeard 5y ago

Side tangent, but I'm curious as to why you list Ansible as imperative, when it seems to be declarative in how you configure a module? Or is this a case of scope? (At the level of a single ansible module, it's config is declarative, but runbooks/roles are imperative? Is it the variable substitution/loop mechanics that make it imperative?)

randomswede 5y ago
In Ansible, you declare a set of actions, that are then performed, one by one. Occasionally being skipped, if a certain condition holds true. So, you are basically saying "do this, do that, then do that". In a declarative model, you would say "this is how the end result should look" and the tool would then go off and make that happen, in whatever order its scheduling tools would say. Sort of the difference between Rust on one side, and Prolog on the other (yes, it is possible to get a specific flow of instructions in Prolog, but it is much easier to let the prolog interpreter/compiler to Just Make It Happen Somehow). FWIW, Puppet gets closer to a declarative model, but unfortunately, the last version I played around with seriously was actually quite bad at inferring ordering on its own, so a LOT of work ended up going into "well, A has to happen before B, so let us string a dependency here".
- tehbeard 5y ago
  I guess I need an example of the declarative model, as I can see the Ansible model in my head and it still looks declarative to me atleast at the singular module level. in Ansible, you say "make sure these packages are installed" and they'll be installed as needed, to match that state, or ignored if already there. Even the file level stuff you can say "make sure this line is in the file" and it either adds it or says "nope, that's already in there". Is it that there's modules that aren't declarative? Sort of the esoteric ones to poke specific cloud infrastructure (though even the few of those I looked at seemed to be declarative if needed).
  - randomswede 5y ago
    It is not declarative. The simple fact that the playbook will ALWAYS be run in the order you specify, even if a later step is (technically) a prerequisite of a previous step, means that you are in an imperative mode. Puppet is declarative, you simply say "these things must, or must not, hold" and a combination of user-declared and inferred dependencies arrange the sequencing, which can be different in each run (as long as the before/after dependencies hold).

polendri 5y ago

It sounds like you're suggesting that there's some inherent reason why your infrastructure definition must have the same structure as the output of that definition (the infrastructure). I agree that the infrastructure is state, but it seems obvious to me that sometimes it requires non-trivial computations to decide on the desired state, something which is best served by code. It's also a false dichotomy IMO that configuration files are the only declarative alternative to imperative tools like Salt/Ansible. You can have declarative code too: my laptop is running NixOS and its system state is defined in code (in a purpose-built language that looks much like a config file). So really I think there are three approaches, not two, each with upsides and downsides which keep us all ping-ponging between them: 1. Config files are ideal for simple use cases, but a mess for complex ones 2. General-purpose programming languages are completely flexible, but allow you to create a huge unmaintainable mess 3. Dedicated declarative languages constrain you enough to mostly provide the best of both config files and code, but then you have to learn a whole new language, one which was probably conceived hastily (I find the Nix language awful honestly) Some people need arbitrary computations to define their infrastructure, so I think pure config files are a non-starter from a purist's perspective. But, so far we haven't been able to come up with a programming language for infrastructure that isn't a mess to use.