4 ms·

So the solution to the problem of doctors and medicine makers not being able to figure out what's gonna be safe and effective for whom is to just tell the patie

So the solution to the problem of doctors and medicine makers not being able to figure out what's gonna be safe and effective for whom is to just tell the patient to try to figure that out on their own?

dnautics 5y ago
Choosing != Figuring out
sneak 5y ago
We know the top-down approach is ineffective. Is the other one worse?
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
  The terms "patent medicine" and "snake oil" didn't just appear from the aether.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Yes. We don't have to wonder; we have a supplements industry to show us what happens.
  - JamesBarney 5y ago
    The supplement industry has some problems. But it also has a few things going for it. It's far cheaper, and the only people that have been harmed from it made a choice to take that risk. I don't know anyone personally who's life has been screwed up by supplements. But I do know two people personally whose lives were wrecked for years because of FDA regulations. Not to mention the absurdity that was restricting the j&j and AZ vaccines.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      Yes. Definitely. One has to admit that the supplements industry acquitted itself well during the coronavirus crisis.
  - sneak 5y ago
    This seems like cherry-picking. Quackery doesn't care about regulation (for example, hydroxychloroquine is prescription-only in the US), and shady hucksters abound in all industries (including ours; look at all the meaningless "threat intelligence" hype). You could also just as easily look at the situation where poultry practices banned in Europe are the norm everywhere in the single-hand-countable poultry producers in the US, or the "regulation" they apply to tobacco products (which kill 7x more than opiates in the USA). It's a farce. The FDA isn't doing what they ostensibly exist to do, and they are doing a whole bunch of stuff they're not. It's the worst of both worlds.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      The supplements market is literally the largest unregulated market for pharmaceuticals. I'm not sure how it could be cherry-picked.
      - sneak 5y ago
        The supplements market is quite tiny ($36bn) compared to the "unregulated market for pharmaceuticals" that most people mean by that phrase ($150bn+). For me and many, many others, that market serves us far better than the regulated one. You're cherry-picking supplements quackery and hucksterism out of the 6x larger "unregulated drugs" market on Earth, which exists despite insanely harsh penalties prohibiting it. It would likely be much larger if not illegal.
        tptacek 5y ago
        I'm not sure I understand your argument. The supplements market is an even bigger fraction of the pharmaceuticals market than I thought, so I'm even more convinced of my point now. But, again: the literal point of the supplements market is to function the way you suggest the pharmaceuticals market should. I think that we should rather regulate the remaining $36B in supplements out of existence.
- jhayward 5y ago
  Thalidomide.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Tobacco, "regulated" by the FDA, currently kills 7x as many as opiates in the USA. Whatever the FDA is supposed to be doing, they're not doing it.
    - jhayward 5y ago
      If you don't understand the legislative history of tobacco regulation in the US, you should probably not comment.
JamesBarney 5y ago
The solution to doctors and medicine makers not being able to figure out if it's safe and effective is to let patients make choices as to what they can put in their own bodies.

dnautics 5y ago

Choosing != Figuring out

sneak 5y ago

We know the top-down approach is ineffective. Is the other one worse?

35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
The terms "patent medicine" and "snake oil" didn't just appear from the aether.
tptacek 5y ago
Yes. We don't have to wonder; we have a supplements industry to show us what happens.
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  The supplement industry has some problems. But it also has a few things going for it. It's far cheaper, and the only people that have been harmed from it made a choice to take that risk. I don't know anyone personally who's life has been screwed up by supplements. But I do know two people personally whose lives were wrecked for years because of FDA regulations. Not to mention the absurdity that was restricting the j&j and AZ vaccines.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Yes. Definitely. One has to admit that the supplements industry acquitted itself well during the coronavirus crisis.
- sneak 5y ago
  This seems like cherry-picking. Quackery doesn't care about regulation (for example, hydroxychloroquine is prescription-only in the US), and shady hucksters abound in all industries (including ours; look at all the meaningless "threat intelligence" hype). You could also just as easily look at the situation where poultry practices banned in Europe are the norm everywhere in the single-hand-countable poultry producers in the US, or the "regulation" they apply to tobacco products (which kill 7x more than opiates in the USA). It's a farce. The FDA isn't doing what they ostensibly exist to do, and they are doing a whole bunch of stuff they're not. It's the worst of both worlds.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    The supplements market is literally the largest unregulated market for pharmaceuticals. I'm not sure how it could be cherry-picked.
    - sneak 5y ago
      The supplements market is quite tiny ($36bn) compared to the "unregulated market for pharmaceuticals" that most people mean by that phrase ($150bn+). For me and many, many others, that market serves us far better than the regulated one. You're cherry-picking supplements quackery and hucksterism out of the 6x larger "unregulated drugs" market on Earth, which exists despite insanely harsh penalties prohibiting it. It would likely be much larger if not illegal.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        I'm not sure I understand your argument. The supplements market is an even bigger fraction of the pharmaceuticals market than I thought, so I'm even more convinced of my point now. But, again: the literal point of the supplements market is to function the way you suggest the pharmaceuticals market should. I think that we should rather regulate the remaining $36B in supplements out of existence.
jhayward 5y ago
Thalidomide.
- sneak 5y ago
  Tobacco, "regulated" by the FDA, currently kills 7x as many as opiates in the USA. Whatever the FDA is supposed to be doing, they're not doing it.
  - jhayward 5y ago
    If you don't understand the legislative history of tobacco regulation in the US, you should probably not comment.

JamesBarney 5y ago

The solution to doctors and medicine makers not being able to figure out if it's safe and effective is to let patients make choices as to what they can put in their own bodies.