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The DLI has a different set of motivations: bring as many analysts to a working level of proficiency within a fixed time period, and has a lot of other things t

The DLI has a different set of motivations: bring as many analysts to a working level of proficiency within a fixed time period, and has a lot of other things that confound this analysis: it's totally ok for the DLI to wash out some percentage of trainees in each flight, they can pre-screen candidates into whatever language they think is a best fit depending on candidates latent aptitudes, etc. There is a universe where both pieces of advice can be right; surely you can imagine "don't worry about speaking" advice might be reasonable for someone who is learning casually, has no hard time frame to learn, wants to learn in dribbles and maximally passively, for whom a partial fluency might be a reasonable endpoint, and the greatest risk is burnout from negative reinforcement of failure.

emodendroket 5y ago
Those are all different claims than the original post was making though.
solarmist 5y ago
"Don't speak" is a myth and by not speaking you are hindering your own learning. Dr. Krashen's advice was taken out of context. It was not meant as general advice not to speak. If you personally don't care and don't wish to speak that's fine, but don't try to promote that as advice on how to get the most out of studying a language.
foldr 5y ago
There's a lot of wishful thinking around language learning. The idea that some part of it will "just happen" naturally is very appealing. The unfortunate reality is that you meed lots of practice at everything: speaking, listening, reading and writing. You won't improve significantly at any one of those skills without many hundreds of hours of practice.
- ehaliewicz2 5y ago
  Massive amounts of listening and reading is practice :)
  - foldr 5y ago
    Yes. It will make you better at listening and reading, but not at speaking.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ehaliewicz2 5y ago
      Yes, like speaking will not make you better at comprehension, although comprehension is required to have any meaningful conversation. Speaking needs to be practiced, but input and understanding comes first. I'm pretty sure the originally poster did not mean to never speak at all. But just not to worry about it for a while.
      - foldr 5y ago
        I don’t see any reason to delay practicing simple phrases like “Hello”, “How are you?”, etc., or practicing the pronunciation of the vocab that you’re learning. It takes years to be able to reliably comprehend naturalistic conversation. You can’t realistically delay speaking until that point.
        ehaliewicz2 5y ago
        You definitely can, but whether it's necessary to delay simple things like that, I'm not sure. It's pretty simple to speak things that you've acquired (of course it'll be slow and awkward at first, but that's natural), I just don't think there's much point in trying to speak things you haven't already acquired.
- dnautics 5y ago
  I interpreted the GGP to mean something like: think about how you learn your first language -- you spend a ton of time listening before trying to speak. Don't focus on speaking so soon. I don't think that is so much "wishful thinking" as an interesting strategy to consider. I'd do it for spanish, but I can't find star trek with (latam) spanish audio.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    I don't think so. Babies are constantly making sounds and trying to speak even when they have a very poor grasp on the language. I personally learn much more from fumbling around with a language, and letting fluent speakers correct me, than I do from listening to it - though both are helpful. I recently had the opportunity to watch a lot of Spanish TV with a couple native Spanish speakers and I learned a ton from it. Through the commercial breaks I'd be repeating phrases from the show and asking them about it - or telling them my theories about what was going on in the show to see if I was understanding it.
  - borroka 5y ago
    There is little in common between language acquisition in kids and adults. And I have been reading the literature, and you have one research group that says it is the same, another saying it is different. Find me one kid (maybe there is one, but you get the idea) who is growing up in a household in which the local language is spoken and does not sound native when they speak.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >There's a lot of wishful thinking around language learning. The idea that some part of it will "just happen" naturally is very appealing. The unfortunate reality is that you meed lots of practice at everything Not really. In actual life tons of people have learned to speak a second language naturally without any deliberate practice, books, etc, just by immigrating to another place and picking it up making acquantainces, working (e.g. menial jobs), and so on.

emodendroket 5y ago

Those are all different claims than the original post was making though.

solarmist 5y ago

"Don't speak" is a myth and by not speaking you are hindering your own learning. Dr. Krashen's advice was taken out of context. It was not meant as general advice not to speak. If you personally don't care and don't wish to speak that's fine, but don't try to promote that as advice on how to get the most out of studying a language.

foldr 5y ago

There's a lot of wishful thinking around language learning. The idea that some part of it will "just happen" naturally is very appealing. The unfortunate reality is that you meed lots of practice at everything: speaking, listening, reading and writing. You won't improve significantly at any one of those skills without many hundreds of hours of practice.

ehaliewicz2 5y ago
Massive amounts of listening and reading is practice :)
- foldr 5y ago
  Yes. It will make you better at listening and reading, but not at speaking.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ehaliewicz2 5y ago
    Yes, like speaking will not make you better at comprehension, although comprehension is required to have any meaningful conversation. Speaking needs to be practiced, but input and understanding comes first. I'm pretty sure the originally poster did not mean to never speak at all. But just not to worry about it for a while.
    - foldr 5y ago
      I don’t see any reason to delay practicing simple phrases like “Hello”, “How are you?”, etc., or practicing the pronunciation of the vocab that you’re learning. It takes years to be able to reliably comprehend naturalistic conversation. You can’t realistically delay speaking until that point.
      - ehaliewicz2 5y ago
        You definitely can, but whether it's necessary to delay simple things like that, I'm not sure. It's pretty simple to speak things that you've acquired (of course it'll be slow and awkward at first, but that's natural), I just don't think there's much point in trying to speak things you haven't already acquired.
dnautics 5y ago
I interpreted the GGP to mean something like: think about how you learn your first language -- you spend a ton of time listening before trying to speak. Don't focus on speaking so soon. I don't think that is so much "wishful thinking" as an interesting strategy to consider. I'd do it for spanish, but I can't find star trek with (latam) spanish audio.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  I don't think so. Babies are constantly making sounds and trying to speak even when they have a very poor grasp on the language. I personally learn much more from fumbling around with a language, and letting fluent speakers correct me, than I do from listening to it - though both are helpful. I recently had the opportunity to watch a lot of Spanish TV with a couple native Spanish speakers and I learned a ton from it. Through the commercial breaks I'd be repeating phrases from the show and asking them about it - or telling them my theories about what was going on in the show to see if I was understanding it.
- borroka 5y ago
  There is little in common between language acquisition in kids and adults. And I have been reading the literature, and you have one research group that says it is the same, another saying it is different. Find me one kid (maybe there is one, but you get the idea) who is growing up in a household in which the local language is spoken and does not sound native when they speak.
coldtea 5y ago
>There's a lot of wishful thinking around language learning. The idea that some part of it will "just happen" naturally is very appealing. The unfortunate reality is that you meed lots of practice at everything Not really. In actual life tons of people have learned to speak a second language naturally without any deliberate practice, books, etc, just by immigrating to another place and picking it up making acquantainces, working (e.g. menial jobs), and so on.