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"Avoid speaking" This is 100% a myth. The Defense Language Institute comprehensively disproved this in the mid-1970's. I know this because it's discussed on th

"Avoid speaking" This is 100% a myth. The Defense Language Institute comprehensively disproved this in the mid-1970's. I know this because it's discussed on the first day of classes at DLI as for why you need to learn to speak the language not just hear and read it. Because my job title was voice intercept operator. Pre-1976 the Defense Language Institute did not score or rate students speaking ability because only reading and listening were considered mission critical skills. Post-1976 it was considered a mission critical skill because it had such a dramatic effect on students final listening and reading abilities during the culminating Defense Language Proficiency Test (DLPT). Subsequently an Oral Proficiency Interview (OPI) was developed and is considered an integral part of the DLPT. Note: This was all direct, primary research done at the Defense Language Institute with thousands of participants annually, so it was direct cause and effect experiment. It's hard to find the specific research results summarizing this, but here's one example from that time period. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1975-10458-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1975-10458-001

sweetheart 5y ago
Not according to the research I've done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, or my own experiences. EDIT: As I linked below, here is Krashen on the subject - http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/down_with_forced_speech_pdf.pdf http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/down_with_forced_s...
- anbende 5y ago
  Right but as has been pointed out elsewhere, the linked article does not say to avoid speaking. Instead it says to avoid a strong focus on forced speech in a classroom, which likely means the sorts of repetition exercises that many of us remember from adolescence. That is very different from not trying to use the language productively at all.
  - solarmist 5y ago
    Right. Making students repeat and memorize sentences that are beyond their current ability is detrimental. Think of it this way. If I gave you a paragraph in Turkish (or insert language X) to memorize and recite that's very different than giving you some greetings and responses to memorize and recite. For the first there is no mental model for where the paragraph fits in or how it's constructed. In the second almost everyone has some experience learning greetings in a couple of languages just by exposure to pop culture, so even if you don't understand the specifics of how those phrases work you have some confidence in how to employ them and you'll generally feel somewhat confident in being able to break them down later if you need to because greetings done in short and simple language.
commandlinefan 5y ago
I was surprised to see that suggestion as well: every language course I've ever seen focuses on memorizing a (relatively) natural dialog and reciting it word for word from memory as its primary means of targeting fluency. I don't know about the research OP cites, but I've found that, for me, memorizing the dialogues as the courses suggest have been by far the most helpful way to advance in language acquisition. I will admit, though, that of the foreign languages I do speak, I speak them better than I understand them... so maybe there is something to this.
dnautics 5y ago
The DLI has a different set of motivations: bring as many analysts to a working level of proficiency within a fixed time period, and has a lot of other things that confound this analysis: it's totally ok for the DLI to wash out some percentage of trainees in each flight, they can pre-screen candidates into whatever language they think is a best fit depending on candidates latent aptitudes, etc. There is a universe where both pieces of advice can be right; surely you can imagine "don't worry about speaking" advice might be reasonable for someone who is learning casually, has no hard time frame to learn, wants to learn in dribbles and maximally passively, for whom a partial fluency might be a reasonable endpoint, and the greatest risk is burnout from negative reinforcement of failure.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Those are all different claims than the original post was making though.
- solarmist 5y ago
  "Don't speak" is a myth and by not speaking you are hindering your own learning. Dr. Krashen's advice was taken out of context. It was not meant as general advice not to speak. If you personally don't care and don't wish to speak that's fine, but don't try to promote that as advice on how to get the most out of studying a language.
- foldr 5y ago
  There's a lot of wishful thinking around language learning. The idea that some part of it will "just happen" naturally is very appealing. The unfortunate reality is that you meed lots of practice at everything: speaking, listening, reading and writing. You won't improve significantly at any one of those skills without many hundreds of hours of practice.
  - ehaliewicz2 5y ago
    Massive amounts of listening and reading is practice :)

sweetheart 5y ago

Not according to the research I've done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, or my own experiences. EDIT: As I linked below, here is Krashen on the subject - http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/down_with_forced_speech_pdf.pdf http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/down_with_forced_s...

anbende 5y ago
Right but as has been pointed out elsewhere, the linked article does not say to avoid speaking. Instead it says to avoid a strong focus on forced speech in a classroom, which likely means the sorts of repetition exercises that many of us remember from adolescence. That is very different from not trying to use the language productively at all.
- solarmist 5y ago
  Right. Making students repeat and memorize sentences that are beyond their current ability is detrimental. Think of it this way. If I gave you a paragraph in Turkish (or insert language X) to memorize and recite that's very different than giving you some greetings and responses to memorize and recite. For the first there is no mental model for where the paragraph fits in or how it's constructed. In the second almost everyone has some experience learning greetings in a couple of languages just by exposure to pop culture, so even if you don't understand the specifics of how those phrases work you have some confidence in how to employ them and you'll generally feel somewhat confident in being able to break them down later if you need to because greetings done in short and simple language.

commandlinefan 5y ago

I was surprised to see that suggestion as well: every language course I've ever seen focuses on memorizing a (relatively) natural dialog and reciting it word for word from memory as its primary means of targeting fluency. I don't know about the research OP cites, but I've found that, for me, memorizing the dialogues as the courses suggest have been by far the most helpful way to advance in language acquisition. I will admit, though, that of the foreign languages I do speak, I speak them better than I understand them... so maybe there is something to this.

dnautics 5y ago

The DLI has a different set of motivations: bring as many analysts to a working level of proficiency within a fixed time period, and has a lot of other things that confound this analysis: it's totally ok for the DLI to wash out some percentage of trainees in each flight, they can pre-screen candidates into whatever language they think is a best fit depending on candidates latent aptitudes, etc. There is a universe where both pieces of advice can be right; surely you can imagine "don't worry about speaking" advice might be reasonable for someone who is learning casually, has no hard time frame to learn, wants to learn in dribbles and maximally passively, for whom a partial fluency might be a reasonable endpoint, and the greatest risk is burnout from negative reinforcement of failure.

emodendroket 5y ago
Those are all different claims than the original post was making though.
solarmist 5y ago
"Don't speak" is a myth and by not speaking you are hindering your own learning. Dr. Krashen's advice was taken out of context. It was not meant as general advice not to speak. If you personally don't care and don't wish to speak that's fine, but don't try to promote that as advice on how to get the most out of studying a language.
foldr 5y ago
There's a lot of wishful thinking around language learning. The idea that some part of it will "just happen" naturally is very appealing. The unfortunate reality is that you meed lots of practice at everything: speaking, listening, reading and writing. You won't improve significantly at any one of those skills without many hundreds of hours of practice.
- ehaliewicz2 5y ago
  Massive amounts of listening and reading is practice :)