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Most of the high paying professions outside of software require the degree and that first job to break into them. Sure for banking and consulting it’s not a har

Most of the high paying professions outside of software require the degree and that first job to break into them. Sure for banking and consulting it’s not a hard requirement, but it’s much harder to get into them with bad grades or a degree from a non-target school. It’s really only in the software bubble where people are able to prove themselves to break into it, due to various factors including engineers being in very short supply relative to demand for over a decade now. Sure nobody asks for my grades now that I’ve been out of college for a while, but they still look at where I went to college (based on high school achievement) and my first job (based on college achievement) and subsequent jobs (much easier to get because of where I worked at my first job), etc. I just see this argument as very tone deaf because there are hundreds of millions of us regular people out there, and academic achievement is the most surefire way to get noticed and be given opportunities if you aren’t lucky enough to come from an important/influential family. It’s not only about the grades themselves but how they pipeline the rest of your career and credentials. Rich people can shmooze and scheme to get some of those credentials and opportunities for their kids without the grades, but not us regular folk.

withinboredom 5y ago
> but they still look at where I went to college (based on high school achievement) and my first job (based on college achievement) and subsequent jobs (much easier to get because of where I worked at my first job), etc. No one has ever asked me about my schooling and I haven't had a school on my resume in over 10 years. Do they look at it because you put it on your resume?
- opportune 5y ago
  I am still early in my career. And many jobs I have applied for/am interested in unfortunately index on having gone to a good school. I’ll probably never work for one but I’m pretty interested in HFT and quant hedge funds, and have interviewed with them before, and am of the understanding that having a name brand college on your resume is a soft requirement.
caseysoftware 5y ago
"Sure nobody asks for my grades now that I’ve been out of college for a while, but they still look at where I went to college.." How do you know that? Do they mention it? I'm really curious on this one. Other than the rare alum, I haven't had anyone comment on my undergrad more than a year or two out of it. Recent jobs and projects make up the vast majority of any conversation.
- robotresearcher 5y ago
  Biases work quietly. A recruiter that favors Ivy League grads does not comment on that to the candidates they contact, and obviously doesn't to the ones they don't.
- opportune 5y ago
  To echo the sibling comment, it’s more for getting past screening than for anything involving interviews. Although it likely does add some implicit bias even for later interviewers/hiring managers who see my resume even if they don’t mention it.
PascLeRasc 5y ago
I really wish I hadn’t bothered studying electrical engineering at a mid-tier school. There’s zero EE jobs available for that kind of graduate. You just can’t get recruiters to look at your application. Half of my graduating class is stuck doing self-taught DBA work for the local bank, telephone pole, or health insurance company. It’s so frustrating.
- nzmsv 5y ago
  You are right: you can't get recruiters to look at such an application. This applies to CS as well, not just EE. They only look at the top 10 or so schools. The trick is to get a job without a recruiter looking at your application. The only way they'll help you is to speed up the trip your resume takes to the bin. Your task is to bypass them. However, once you get your first job in the Valley everything changes. Suddenly the very same recruiters will spam you with offers. They operate like web scrapers: ingest resumes from top 10 CS school grads OR employees of SV companies :) So how does one get such a job? You'll probably have to take a chance on a small company that doesn't have a wall of recruiters yet and talk to the people who actually need to hire someone. Show them a project that will impress them. PS: there are probably good recruiters out there, but the chances of meeting them are slim. Personally I'd go with the "bypass" heuristic for the first job.
- prtkgpt 5y ago
  I agree with you 100%. Almost all of my EE group of friends weren’t able to find jobs right away! Even internships were limited. Almost everyone learned coding languages in demand around Silicon Valley and were able to find employment! 4 years of EE went to waste. Sad.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
snowwrestler 5y ago
The reason software is different is simply that it is a recently developed industry. If you look back, all industries start this way. The most heavily-credentialed and tightly-regulated field you can think of today started off as a bunch of hustlers making it up as they went along. It didn’t last for those other industries and it likely won’t last for software.
- golemiprague 5y ago
  I am not sure, software is a bit like a trade, you actually build something only it is virtual and if you build it they will come, nobody can stop you from building things. Medicine, Law or consulting are services, not actualy creating any actual new value. They build their moat by making the license very hard to obtain and making one's status and prestige the most important thing. You do need licenses to do certain trades but they are usually not that hard to obtain and the prestige of the institute giving them is less important.
vp8989 5y ago
It's curious that you are defending a system that evidently provides poor social mobility, because the person who is trying to de-emphasize it's significance is rich.

withinboredom 5y ago

> but they still look at where I went to college (based on high school achievement) and my first job (based on college achievement) and subsequent jobs (much easier to get because of where I worked at my first job), etc. No one has ever asked me about my schooling and I haven't had a school on my resume in over 10 years. Do they look at it because you put it on your resume?

opportune 5y ago
I am still early in my career. And many jobs I have applied for/am interested in unfortunately index on having gone to a good school. I’ll probably never work for one but I’m pretty interested in HFT and quant hedge funds, and have interviewed with them before, and am of the understanding that having a name brand college on your resume is a soft requirement.

caseysoftware 5y ago

"Sure nobody asks for my grades now that I’ve been out of college for a while, but they still look at where I went to college.." How do you know that? Do they mention it? I'm really curious on this one. Other than the rare alum, I haven't had anyone comment on my undergrad more than a year or two out of it. Recent jobs and projects make up the vast majority of any conversation.

robotresearcher 5y ago
Biases work quietly. A recruiter that favors Ivy League grads does not comment on that to the candidates they contact, and obviously doesn't to the ones they don't.
opportune 5y ago
To echo the sibling comment, it’s more for getting past screening than for anything involving interviews. Although it likely does add some implicit bias even for later interviewers/hiring managers who see my resume even if they don’t mention it.

PascLeRasc 5y ago

I really wish I hadn’t bothered studying electrical engineering at a mid-tier school. There’s zero EE jobs available for that kind of graduate. You just can’t get recruiters to look at your application. Half of my graduating class is stuck doing self-taught DBA work for the local bank, telephone pole, or health insurance company. It’s so frustrating.

nzmsv 5y ago
You are right: you can't get recruiters to look at such an application. This applies to CS as well, not just EE. They only look at the top 10 or so schools. The trick is to get a job without a recruiter looking at your application. The only way they'll help you is to speed up the trip your resume takes to the bin. Your task is to bypass them. However, once you get your first job in the Valley everything changes. Suddenly the very same recruiters will spam you with offers. They operate like web scrapers: ingest resumes from top 10 CS school grads OR employees of SV companies :) So how does one get such a job? You'll probably have to take a chance on a small company that doesn't have a wall of recruiters yet and talk to the people who actually need to hire someone. Show them a project that will impress them. PS: there are probably good recruiters out there, but the chances of meeting them are slim. Personally I'd go with the "bypass" heuristic for the first job.
prtkgpt 5y ago
I agree with you 100%. Almost all of my EE group of friends weren’t able to find jobs right away! Even internships were limited. Almost everyone learned coding languages in demand around Silicon Valley and were able to find employment! 4 years of EE went to waste. Sad.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

snowwrestler 5y ago

The reason software is different is simply that it is a recently developed industry. If you look back, all industries start this way. The most heavily-credentialed and tightly-regulated field you can think of today started off as a bunch of hustlers making it up as they went along. It didn’t last for those other industries and it likely won’t last for software.

golemiprague 5y ago
I am not sure, software is a bit like a trade, you actually build something only it is virtual and if you build it they will come, nobody can stop you from building things. Medicine, Law or consulting are services, not actualy creating any actual new value. They build their moat by making the license very hard to obtain and making one's status and prestige the most important thing. You do need licenses to do certain trades but they are usually not that hard to obtain and the prestige of the institute giving them is less important.

vp8989 5y ago

It's curious that you are defending a system that evidently provides poor social mobility, because the person who is trying to de-emphasize it's significance is rich.