5 ms·

>They cannot provide end-to-end encrypted mail because limitations in existing email protocols prevent it You misunderstood something, end-to-end encrypted mai

by nix23 5y ago

>They cannot provide end-to-end encrypted mail because limitations in existing email protocols prevent it You misunderstood something, end-to-end encrypted mail just works from a proton to a proton address. >Messages between ProtonMail users are also transmitted in encrypted form within our secure server network. https://protonmail.com/security-details https://protonmail.com/security-details But yeah, the free storage is a joke and the complicated add-on pricing too. Calendar and imap on the other-hand is pretty important for me. BTW: When did Apple open-sourced their email server?

c7DJTLrn 5y ago
>You misunderstood something, end-to-end encrypted mail just works from a proton to a proton address. No, I am aware of this, but PM's advertising lies by omission. >When did Apple open-sourced their email server? I'll counter this by asking when ProtonMail open sourced theirs.
- nix23 5y ago
  >No, I am aware of this, but PM's advertising lies by omission. Show me that advertisement. >I'll counter this by asking when ProtonMail open sourced theirs. Yes the whole infrastructure: https://github.com/ProtonMail https://github.com/ProtonMail
  - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
    >Show me that advertisement. Look at the landing page. It clearly advertises end-to-end encryption and claims PM cannot read your emails, which is false. It does not mention that E2EE is only available between PM users. >Yes the whole infrastructure Don't move the goalposts. You said the server. Their server is not open source.
    - Avamander 5y ago
      > It does not mention that E2EE is only available between PM users. To the extent that PGP is E2E, it's available between anyone.
      - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
        Then advertising it as a feature of PM is still misleading. The correct way to advertise it would be as "GPG Support", or "GPG Integration".
        Avamander 5y ago
        "GPG support" is "E2E support" though. Calling that false advertising is like calling "e-mail service" false advertising because it's actually "IMAP/SMTP service".
    - willis936 5y ago
      >PM cannot read your emails, which is false How so? The storage is encrypted with a key they don't have. They can read all of the non-encrypted email traffic that passes through their servers, but that's true of any router in the path of nearly all email traffic as well. They don't have the ability to decrypt the store of emails. This is valuable because most email hosting providers are one hack or subpoena away from being a massive info dump of all of their users.
      - sbuk 5y ago
        What they're saying is they can't access your mail at rest, in your mailbox. I'm guessing they do spam and virus checks etc, which has to done decrypted and can be syphoned off to another store. I am suspicious of any mail service that makes the claims that they do based on how email works. Of course PGP is encrypted at point of origin, but that means that they can't be security checked, other than basic DNS auth checks. Less of an issue I grant you, but an issue none the less.
    - beermonster 5y ago
      > Look at the landing page Look here https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/what-is-encrypted/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/what-is-encryp... It clearly states what is encrypted.
    - nix23 5y ago
      >Look at the landing page. It clearly advertises end-to-end encryption and claims PM cannot read your emails, which is false. It does not mention that E2EE is only available between PM users. Details are important buddy: https://protonmail.com/security-details https://protonmail.com/security-details The Server part is Linux, Dovecot, and Postfix.
  - moogly 5y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks to be mostly frontend stuff to me.
sequoia 5y ago
> end-to-end encrypted mail just works from a proton to a proton address. This is no longer email, it's a proprietary messaging platform. They offer email to other email providers, and encrypted messaging to other protonmail users, and they bundle both message types into your email inbox. Signal could bolt on an email transport to allow you to send and receive emails from Signal and that would be the same: communications within Signal would be encrypted, communications to external email servers would not be (any more "encrypted" than, say, gmail is).
- nix23 5y ago
  Yes is use a proprietary messaging platform when i send an internal (on the same server) mail to another user... mail root subject: restart server blabla ctrl D
sbuk 5y ago
> BTW: When did Apple open-sourced their email server? Apple use Postfix as an MTA for iCloud.
- nix23 5y ago
  And the imap part? The opensourced Mail client on the iphone? iCloud has an MTA?
  - sbuk 5y ago
    Yes, why so surprised? How else do they send and receive messages? Postfix scales extremely well and is used by most of the Fortune 500 in some capacity - either as edge servers, internal relays and as common-or-garden MTAs. The IMAP part is another server, at a guess something like Apache James or Oracle Communications Messaging Server, but possibly Cyrus (as Fastmail do) or Dovecot.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
protonmail 5y ago
We provide privacy to everyone, which is why we offer a free plan. However, without paid features and paid services, the free version of ProtonMail would not be able to exist. Unlike adtech companies which spy on you and can hand your data to third parties (like advertisers), ProtonMail can't access your data and doesn't make money from ads. Therefore, paid features are necessary for us to put your privacy first while still offering a free plan. With regards to IMAP, we offer Proton Bridge, which enables the integration of your ProtonMail account with email clients such as Outlook, Thunderbird and Apple Mail.

by nix23 5y ago

c7DJTLrn 5y ago

>You misunderstood something, end-to-end encrypted mail just works from a proton to a proton address. No, I am aware of this, but PM's advertising lies by omission. >When did Apple open-sourced their email server? I'll counter this by asking when ProtonMail open sourced theirs.

nix23 5y ago
>No, I am aware of this, but PM's advertising lies by omission. Show me that advertisement. >I'll counter this by asking when ProtonMail open sourced theirs. Yes the whole infrastructure: https://github.com/ProtonMail https://github.com/ProtonMail
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  >Show me that advertisement. Look at the landing page. It clearly advertises end-to-end encryption and claims PM cannot read your emails, which is false. It does not mention that E2EE is only available between PM users. >Yes the whole infrastructure Don't move the goalposts. You said the server. Their server is not open source.
  - Avamander 5y ago
    > It does not mention that E2EE is only available between PM users. To the extent that PGP is E2E, it's available between anyone.
    - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
      Then advertising it as a feature of PM is still misleading. The correct way to advertise it would be as "GPG Support", or "GPG Integration".
      - Avamander 5y ago
        "GPG support" is "E2E support" though. Calling that false advertising is like calling "e-mail service" false advertising because it's actually "IMAP/SMTP service".
  - willis936 5y ago
    >PM cannot read your emails, which is false How so? The storage is encrypted with a key they don't have. They can read all of the non-encrypted email traffic that passes through their servers, but that's true of any router in the path of nearly all email traffic as well. They don't have the ability to decrypt the store of emails. This is valuable because most email hosting providers are one hack or subpoena away from being a massive info dump of all of their users.
    - sbuk 5y ago
      What they're saying is they can't access your mail at rest, in your mailbox. I'm guessing they do spam and virus checks etc, which has to done decrypted and can be syphoned off to another store. I am suspicious of any mail service that makes the claims that they do based on how email works. Of course PGP is encrypted at point of origin, but that means that they can't be security checked, other than basic DNS auth checks. Less of an issue I grant you, but an issue none the less.
  - beermonster 5y ago
    > Look at the landing page Look here https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/what-is-encrypted/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/what-is-encryp... It clearly states what is encrypted.
  - nix23 5y ago
    >Look at the landing page. It clearly advertises end-to-end encryption and claims PM cannot read your emails, which is false. It does not mention that E2EE is only available between PM users. Details are important buddy: https://protonmail.com/security-details https://protonmail.com/security-details The Server part is Linux, Dovecot, and Postfix.
- moogly 5y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks to be mostly frontend stuff to me.

sequoia 5y ago

> end-to-end encrypted mail just works from a proton to a proton address. This is no longer email, it's a proprietary messaging platform. They offer email to other email providers, and encrypted messaging to other protonmail users, and they bundle both message types into your email inbox. Signal could bolt on an email transport to allow you to send and receive emails from Signal and that would be the same: communications within Signal would be encrypted, communications to external email servers would not be (any more "encrypted" than, say, gmail is).

nix23 5y ago
Yes is use a proprietary messaging platform when i send an internal (on the same server) mail to another user... mail root subject: restart server blabla ctrl D

sbuk 5y ago

> BTW: When did Apple open-sourced their email server? Apple use Postfix as an MTA for iCloud.

nix23 5y ago
And the imap part? The opensourced Mail client on the iphone? iCloud has an MTA?
- sbuk 5y ago
  Yes, why so surprised? How else do they send and receive messages? Postfix scales extremely well and is used by most of the Fortune 500 in some capacity - either as edge servers, internal relays and as common-or-garden MTAs. The IMAP part is another server, at a guess something like Apache James or Oracle Communications Messaging Server, but possibly Cyrus (as Fastmail do) or Dovecot.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

protonmail 5y ago

We provide privacy to everyone, which is why we offer a free plan. However, without paid features and paid services, the free version of ProtonMail would not be able to exist. Unlike adtech companies which spy on you and can hand your data to third parties (like advertisers), ProtonMail can't access your data and doesn't make money from ads. Therefore, paid features are necessary for us to put your privacy first while still offering a free plan. With regards to IMAP, we offer Proton Bridge, which enables the integration of your ProtonMail account with email clients such as Outlook, Thunderbird and Apple Mail.