8 ms·

Vinix – An effort to write a modern, fast, and interesting operating system in V

107 points by letientai299 5y ago

mintsuki 5y ago
Hello, I am the maintainer of Vinix and main contributor. Feel free to ask me anything about the project!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
  - mintsuki 5y ago
    No problem!
- noobermin 5y ago
  You mentioned this in another comment but how do you feel about the other new systems level programming languages and how they compare to V like nim, zig, rust etc.
  - mintsuki 5y ago
    I don't know much about nim but I have seen my fair share of Rust and Zig code. Out of these 2, I'd personally pick Zig if I had to choose. Rust's syntax doesn't resonate with me very much and I feel like it tries to hand hold too much at times. That said I am a programmer and as such I am more into what I can get done with these tools rather than the tools themselves. Whatever I feel can get the job done for whatever I need to do is okay with me. In Vinix's case, I can confirm from personal experience that V has been able to get the job done so far effortlessly.
spicybright 5y ago
I'm always interested to hear about people developing OS's. Hope they implement some stuff other ones don't have. I never heard of V so I looked it up: https://vlang.io/ https://vlang.io/ An implementation of 2048: https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/examples/2048/2048.v https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/examples/2048/2048.v in V
- ylluminate 5y ago
  The Linux source (!binary) compatibility target is exciting. Will be nice to carry over Linux modules/drivers + software. The initial PS/2 keyboard support just landed (https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1402193052941312002 https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1402193052941312002).
- ylluminate 5y ago
  Oh also, mintsuki's (limine, lyre, echfs, qword, some things with managarm, etc) comments about V vs C/Rust/Odin/Zig are really interesting in #vinix-os: https://discordapp.com/channels/592103645835821068/645024404081999885/837453815426449448 https://discordapp.com/channels/592103645835821068/645024404...
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Can you copy those comments here by chance?
    - mintsuki 5y ago
      I basically said that V lends itself better to this kind of development; and the modular, headerless structure gets less messy than C codebases. I also said that while I was skeptical of V (I have read all the criticism many times and I was also critical of the language for the longest time), it lends itself relatively well to kernel development and I am generally having a good time developing Vinix, only encountering minor compiler-related issues here and there, mostly with inline assembly. I also said that the language, by virtue of it currently being a relatively thin wrapper over plain C, resonates with me more as a C developer than somewhat similar alternatives like Zig or Rust. Matter of opinions, really.
mro_name 5y ago
an interesting language. Thanks for sharing.
maccam912 5y ago
I remember shenanigans when V was first announced (release date for public preview, but for a little money you get early access), people being upset that it was half-baked, etc. and wrote it off, but I've heard that it has since changed a ton and is nothing like the early days. Can someone familiar with recent V developments comment on this? It makes bold promises that would be awesome to see realized, but I got the feeling there was just a lot of smoke and mirrors going on in the early days.
- vlang1dot0 5y ago
  Things have improved but it's not clear the author realizes the magnitude of what he's trying to do. The big ticket item is the autofree memory management system which promises near C/Rust performance and minimal overhead without the complexity of borrowing and ownership. To date, this system does not work and is "wip" as the vlang community likes to say. There are also no clear explanations of how it works beyond just "it inserts calls to free() when you are no longer using a variable" which is ... extremely obvious. The more interesting question of how the compiler determines something is no longer being used in the face of aliasing and no borrowing system is completely unanswered. No one working on the project understands how complex that problem is. Initially the goal was that this system would manage all memory for the programmer automatically, this goal has since moved to "manage 90% of objects in memory and use GC for the rest". I suspect we will see that number continue to drop as the author realizes this is intractable without whole program analysis (which they can't do and still hit their compilation time targets). Other items are very much in an alpha state if they work at all. Only in the last month have you been able to create a generic function with more than one type parameter, although V has been claiming support for generics since at least last year. There's still no ability to constrain the type parameter to something that implements an interface/trait/protocol. C2V, another wildly ambitious project that could literally be a PhD project in automatic language translation, was supposed to be released "this week" 5 weeks ago. It's currently in a very private alpha and no source has been released. Which is basically the state of most of the author's projects: huge promises in terms of features and performance with most of them little more than demos. I've come to believe this is an intentional strategy by the author to maximize his Patreon revenue. He makes big promises on social media and then delivers the easy 20% of the project to his followers before switching to another project. It would make far more sense to release a finished project before starting another massive one and yet he can't sit down and finish a project because he knows he can't actually deliver what's been promised.
jeromenerf 5y ago
This reads as a bit more ambitious than the usual HelloWorld or http framework example project.
davtur19 5y ago
Have you bought github stars from a click farm again and then show how many stars you have compared to other langs?
- adamrezich 5y ago
  did this happen? is there proof somewhere?
  - davtur19 5y ago
    https://t.me/vlang_memes/460 https://t.me/vlang_memes/460
    - adamrezich 5y ago
      for anyone who doesn't use Telegram: the image shows that most of the stars came in short bursts of time, from China. kinda weird that one can't click the image in their browser to enlarge it
      - ylluminate 5y ago
        You may be curious to see how many people in China are actually contributing and doing stuff in V. That's actually surprising and cool.
        CyberDildonics 5y ago
        How many?
        Cavallium 5y ago
        Interesting how the interest in China is completely focused ONLY in Beijing and everywhere else no one ever cared about vlang. https://imgur.com/a/dyFOVu1 https://imgur.com/a/dyFOVu1 Click farms maybe?
  - edoceo 5y ago
    This might be real star history. https://star-history.t9t.io/#vlang/v https://star-history.t9t.io/#vlang/v Or, it's better than a meme that needs mOaR jPeG!
programmer_dude 5y ago
V is shady AF. Steer clear of it.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Either that's slander, or it needs some explanation and, preferably, documentation.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27440032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27440032 But feel free to look up any older thread on the language. It’s the musk of PLs.
  - adamdusty 5y ago
    The initial alpha (beta?) release of the project was scheduled for public review, but the developer was accepting payments for early access. I won't comment on the state of the release that some people paid for. The devs seem to have made a few enemies. Devs of other small projects, specifically Nim and Zig aren't fans of V to say the least. Nim devs allege that the V project has made defamatory remarks about their project. Zig developer, Andrew Kelly, also had some things to say about V. [0],[1] There have been numerous occasions of the V dev deleting criticism. There are claims that the V project has been buying stars on github. The project makes very bold claims about the feature set while not having actually implemented said features. There is a popular set of blog posts that dives into the issues with claims vs reality [2],[3],[4] My opinion is that I do find it disingenuous, and borderline scammy, to accept donations and at the same time claim V can do the things it claims. Ultimately, I think the dev is just not great at managing expectations. I highly doubt any of it is malicious intent. Also, somewhere in one of these, Andrew retracts his accusation of fraud, due to the V devs updating the advertised capabilities of the project. [0] https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/292 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/292 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351 [2] https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 [3] https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-03 https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-0... [4] https://christine.website/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17 https://christine.website/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17
super_flanker 5y ago
I want to ask V community a question, as they advertise their language as safe, what do they mean by safety and what does V compiler do to maintain this safety?
Koshkin 5y ago
Ah, they missed the chance to call it VNIX.

107 points by letientai299 5y ago

mintsuki 5y ago

Hello, I am the maintainer of Vinix and main contributor. Feel free to ask me anything about the project!

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- mintsuki 5y ago
  No problem!
noobermin 5y ago
You mentioned this in another comment but how do you feel about the other new systems level programming languages and how they compare to V like nim, zig, rust etc.
- mintsuki 5y ago
  I don't know much about nim but I have seen my fair share of Rust and Zig code. Out of these 2, I'd personally pick Zig if I had to choose. Rust's syntax doesn't resonate with me very much and I feel like it tries to hand hold too much at times. That said I am a programmer and as such I am more into what I can get done with these tools rather than the tools themselves. Whatever I feel can get the job done for whatever I need to do is okay with me. In Vinix's case, I can confirm from personal experience that V has been able to get the job done so far effortlessly.

spicybright 5y ago

I'm always interested to hear about people developing OS's. Hope they implement some stuff other ones don't have. I never heard of V so I looked it up: https://vlang.io/ https://vlang.io/ An implementation of 2048: https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/examples/2048/2048.v https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/examples/2048/2048.v in V

ylluminate 5y ago
The Linux source (!binary) compatibility target is exciting. Will be nice to carry over Linux modules/drivers + software. The initial PS/2 keyboard support just landed (https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1402193052941312002 https://twitter.com/v_language/status/1402193052941312002).
ylluminate 5y ago
Oh also, mintsuki's (limine, lyre, echfs, qword, some things with managarm, etc) comments about V vs C/Rust/Odin/Zig are really interesting in #vinix-os: https://discordapp.com/channels/592103645835821068/645024404081999885/837453815426449448 https://discordapp.com/channels/592103645835821068/645024404...
- monocasa 5y ago
  Can you copy those comments here by chance?
  - mintsuki 5y ago
    I basically said that V lends itself better to this kind of development; and the modular, headerless structure gets less messy than C codebases. I also said that while I was skeptical of V (I have read all the criticism many times and I was also critical of the language for the longest time), it lends itself relatively well to kernel development and I am generally having a good time developing Vinix, only encountering minor compiler-related issues here and there, mostly with inline assembly. I also said that the language, by virtue of it currently being a relatively thin wrapper over plain C, resonates with me more as a C developer than somewhat similar alternatives like Zig or Rust. Matter of opinions, really.

mro_name 5y ago

an interesting language. Thanks for sharing.

maccam912 5y ago

I remember shenanigans when V was first announced (release date for public preview, but for a little money you get early access), people being upset that it was half-baked, etc. and wrote it off, but I've heard that it has since changed a ton and is nothing like the early days. Can someone familiar with recent V developments comment on this? It makes bold promises that would be awesome to see realized, but I got the feeling there was just a lot of smoke and mirrors going on in the early days.

vlang1dot0 5y ago
Things have improved but it's not clear the author realizes the magnitude of what he's trying to do. The big ticket item is the autofree memory management system which promises near C/Rust performance and minimal overhead without the complexity of borrowing and ownership. To date, this system does not work and is "wip" as the vlang community likes to say. There are also no clear explanations of how it works beyond just "it inserts calls to free() when you are no longer using a variable" which is ... extremely obvious. The more interesting question of how the compiler determines something is no longer being used in the face of aliasing and no borrowing system is completely unanswered. No one working on the project understands how complex that problem is. Initially the goal was that this system would manage all memory for the programmer automatically, this goal has since moved to "manage 90% of objects in memory and use GC for the rest". I suspect we will see that number continue to drop as the author realizes this is intractable without whole program analysis (which they can't do and still hit their compilation time targets). Other items are very much in an alpha state if they work at all. Only in the last month have you been able to create a generic function with more than one type parameter, although V has been claiming support for generics since at least last year. There's still no ability to constrain the type parameter to something that implements an interface/trait/protocol. C2V, another wildly ambitious project that could literally be a PhD project in automatic language translation, was supposed to be released "this week" 5 weeks ago. It's currently in a very private alpha and no source has been released. Which is basically the state of most of the author's projects: huge promises in terms of features and performance with most of them little more than demos. I've come to believe this is an intentional strategy by the author to maximize his Patreon revenue. He makes big promises on social media and then delivers the easy 20% of the project to his followers before switching to another project. It would make far more sense to release a finished project before starting another massive one and yet he can't sit down and finish a project because he knows he can't actually deliver what's been promised.

jeromenerf 5y ago

This reads as a bit more ambitious than the usual HelloWorld or http framework example project.

davtur19 5y ago

Have you bought github stars from a click farm again and then show how many stars you have compared to other langs?

adamrezich 5y ago
did this happen? is there proof somewhere?
- davtur19 5y ago
  https://t.me/vlang_memes/460 https://t.me/vlang_memes/460
  - adamrezich 5y ago
    for anyone who doesn't use Telegram: the image shows that most of the stars came in short bursts of time, from China. kinda weird that one can't click the image in their browser to enlarge it
    - ylluminate 5y ago
      You may be curious to see how many people in China are actually contributing and doing stuff in V. That's actually surprising and cool.
      - CyberDildonics 5y ago
        How many?
      - Cavallium 5y ago
        Interesting how the interest in China is completely focused ONLY in Beijing and everywhere else no one ever cared about vlang. https://imgur.com/a/dyFOVu1 https://imgur.com/a/dyFOVu1 Click farms maybe?
- edoceo 5y ago
  This might be real star history. https://star-history.t9t.io/#vlang/v https://star-history.t9t.io/#vlang/v Or, it's better than a meme that needs mOaR jPeG!

programmer_dude 5y ago

V is shady AF. Steer clear of it.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Either that's slander, or it needs some explanation and, preferably, documentation.
- kaba0 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27440032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27440032 But feel free to look up any older thread on the language. It’s the musk of PLs.
- adamdusty 5y ago
  The initial alpha (beta?) release of the project was scheduled for public review, but the developer was accepting payments for early access. I won't comment on the state of the release that some people paid for. The devs seem to have made a few enemies. Devs of other small projects, specifically Nim and Zig aren't fans of V to say the least. Nim devs allege that the V project has made defamatory remarks about their project. Zig developer, Andrew Kelly, also had some things to say about V. [0],[1] There have been numerous occasions of the V dev deleting criticism. There are claims that the V project has been buying stars on github. The project makes very bold claims about the feature set while not having actually implemented said features. There is a popular set of blog posts that dives into the issues with claims vs reality [2],[3],[4] My opinion is that I do find it disingenuous, and borderline scammy, to accept donations and at the same time claim V can do the things it claims. Ultimately, I think the dev is just not great at managing expectations. I highly doubt any of it is malicious intent. Also, somewhere in one of these, Andrew retracts his accusation of fraud, due to the V devs updating the advertised capabilities of the project. [0] https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/292 https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/292 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20230351 [2] https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 https://christine.website/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 [3] https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-03 https://christine.website/blog/v-vvork-in-progress-2020-01-0... [4] https://christine.website/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17 https://christine.website/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17

super_flanker 5y ago

I want to ask V community a question, as they advertise their language as safe, what do they mean by safety and what does V compiler do to maintain this safety?

Koshkin 5y ago

Ah, they missed the chance to call it VNIX.