7 ms·

Makes you wonder how many commercial VPN services are just FBI honeypots?

dannyw 5y ago
Especially VPN services that got acquired, like Private Internet Access, acquired by what many people describe to be a malware company.
- Loughla 5y ago
  Wait, what? What did I miss?
  - astura 5y ago
    It was acquired by Kape Technologies, which used to go by the name of Crossrider and has a sketchy history https://hiddenrouter.com/private-internet-access-vpn-to-be-acquired-by-malware-company-founded-by-former-israeli-spy/ https://hiddenrouter.com/private-internet-access-vpn-to-be-a...
    - nvdr 5y ago
      Thoughts on ProtonVPN?
      - kdtsh 5y ago
        There are few real use-cases for any commercial VPN which claims to sell privacy, they are generally snake oil. The one possible exception is to get around geo-blocking, and in that case you just want to go for one with the most numerous and reliable servers in the location you want to appear to be visiting from. For privacy, the gold (and imperfect) standard is still Tor, and even then you are at the mercy of the owners of the exit node. Freenet and I2P are also interesting.
killingtime74 5y ago
Or even foreign state actors
- andruby 5y ago
  The FBI, from the viewpoint of 95% of the world, is “a foreign state actor”.
  - Thorentis 5y ago
    Not country-wise. The US has many first world allies that cooporerate with the FBI on a second party basis.
xwolfi 5y ago
1, but this is exactly the point. Use them for netflix not to coordinate heroin sales.
deadalus 5y ago
This is exactly why I tend to use VPNs from country's with which the US is not in good terms with : Russia, Iran, Belarus, China
- tlb 5y ago
  First-order strategy (do something that works as long as the other side hasn't also thought of it) only works until the other side thinks of it. My guess is that the intelligence complex (CIA +) thought of this around 1995, and the domestic law enforcement complex (FBI +) around 2005.
- walrus01 5y ago
  If I was a US intelligence agency I would specifically establish colocation presences with ISPs in Russia, Belarus, Uzbekistan, china, etc, on commercial ISP terms, and admin the servers remotely to set them up as a commercial vpn service. There's plenty of datacenter operators in Russia that will take your money.
  - stef25 5y ago
    > There's plenty of datacenter operators in Russia that will take your money. Wouldn't they have some uncomfortable questions to answer when Putin finds out they've been cooperating with the Feds?
    - kryptiskt 5y ago
      Presumably the feds wouldn't say who they were and would pose as common criminals, because they wouldn't have any reason to suppose that the datacenter operator would keep quiet if they were open about their identity.
      - 542354234235 5y ago
        But yours assumes that Russia doesn't do counter-intel and wouldn't be looking for exactly these kinds of infiltrations. If it is obvious to us that these things would be targets, I'm pretty sure it is obvious to Russian intelligence services.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I'm confident the big ones like Nord are just that. And even if they're not, they can just be taken over or backdoored - nobody will ever be the wiser.
wallaBBB 5y ago
One of the (publicly unspoken) conditions to offer VPN services in western countries is to keep logs and provide on their request, regardless of the marketing stories. There are several verifiable cases where Nord has cooperated with FBI and Interpol and provided logs, but this is a fairly small lie, compared to the time when they tried to keep quiet about a breach. Not saying that having a VPN service from Russia or China is a better solution...
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  Russia and China would in fact be a better solution as most Westerners are never going to be subject to Russian or Chinese authorities.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > most Westerners are never going to be subject to Russian or Chinese authorities Coercible locals are a valuable asset. Not sure why countries with zero rule of law would be attractive to someone valuing a principle like privacy.
    - vkou 5y ago
      Any locals in any country are coercible to their government, if it really wants to.
    - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you are trying to say, especially with the "coerciable locals", other than trying to say China and Russia have "zero rule of law".
      - acoard 5y ago
        His point is that foreign states could blackmail you or exert pressure in other ways, even if they aren't gonna extradite and throw you in jail following due process. Thus, Russia/China would have "coercible locals" in western countries.
hansor 5y ago
Very plausible. A lot of "western" VPNs are run by Chinese companies. https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252466203/Top-VPNs-secretly-owned-by-Chinese-firms https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252466203/Top-VPNs-secre...

Especially VPN services that got acquired, like Private Internet Access, acquired by what many people describe to be a malware company.

Loughla 5y ago
Wait, what? What did I miss?
- astura 5y ago
  It was acquired by Kape Technologies, which used to go by the name of Crossrider and has a sketchy history https://hiddenrouter.com/private-internet-access-vpn-to-be-acquired-by-malware-company-founded-by-former-israeli-spy/ https://hiddenrouter.com/private-internet-access-vpn-to-be-a...
  - nvdr 5y ago
    Thoughts on ProtonVPN?
    - kdtsh 5y ago
      There are few real use-cases for any commercial VPN which claims to sell privacy, they are generally snake oil. The one possible exception is to get around geo-blocking, and in that case you just want to go for one with the most numerous and reliable servers in the location you want to appear to be visiting from. For privacy, the gold (and imperfect) standard is still Tor, and even then you are at the mercy of the owners of the exit node. Freenet and I2P are also interesting.

killingtime74 5y ago

Or even foreign state actors

andruby 5y ago
The FBI, from the viewpoint of 95% of the world, is “a foreign state actor”.
- Thorentis 5y ago
  Not country-wise. The US has many first world allies that cooporerate with the FBI on a second party basis.

xwolfi 5y ago

1, but this is exactly the point. Use them for netflix not to coordinate heroin sales.

deadalus 5y ago

This is exactly why I tend to use VPNs from country's with which the US is not in good terms with : Russia, Iran, Belarus, China

tlb 5y ago
First-order strategy (do something that works as long as the other side hasn't also thought of it) only works until the other side thinks of it. My guess is that the intelligence complex (CIA +) thought of this around 1995, and the domestic law enforcement complex (FBI +) around 2005.
walrus01 5y ago
If I was a US intelligence agency I would specifically establish colocation presences with ISPs in Russia, Belarus, Uzbekistan, china, etc, on commercial ISP terms, and admin the servers remotely to set them up as a commercial vpn service. There's plenty of datacenter operators in Russia that will take your money.
- stef25 5y ago
  > There's plenty of datacenter operators in Russia that will take your money. Wouldn't they have some uncomfortable questions to answer when Putin finds out they've been cooperating with the Feds?
  - kryptiskt 5y ago
    Presumably the feds wouldn't say who they were and would pose as common criminals, because they wouldn't have any reason to suppose that the datacenter operator would keep quiet if they were open about their identity.
    - 542354234235 5y ago
      But yours assumes that Russia doesn't do counter-intel and wouldn't be looking for exactly these kinds of infiltrations. If it is obvious to us that these things would be targets, I'm pretty sure it is obvious to Russian intelligence services.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

I'm confident the big ones like Nord are just that. And even if they're not, they can just be taken over or backdoored - nobody will ever be the wiser.

wallaBBB 5y ago

One of the (publicly unspoken) conditions to offer VPN services in western countries is to keep logs and provide on their request, regardless of the marketing stories. There are several verifiable cases where Nord has cooperated with FBI and Interpol and provided logs, but this is a fairly small lie, compared to the time when they tried to keep quiet about a breach. Not saying that having a VPN service from Russia or China is a better solution...

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
Russia and China would in fact be a better solution as most Westerners are never going to be subject to Russian or Chinese authorities.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > most Westerners are never going to be subject to Russian or Chinese authorities Coercible locals are a valuable asset. Not sure why countries with zero rule of law would be attractive to someone valuing a principle like privacy.
  - vkou 5y ago
    Any locals in any country are coercible to their government, if it really wants to.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say, especially with the "coerciable locals", other than trying to say China and Russia have "zero rule of law".
    - acoard 5y ago
      His point is that foreign states could blackmail you or exert pressure in other ways, even if they aren't gonna extradite and throw you in jail following due process. Thus, Russia/China would have "coercible locals" in western countries.

hansor 5y ago

Very plausible. A lot of "western" VPNs are run by Chinese companies. https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252466203/Top-VPNs-secretly-owned-by-Chinese-firms https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252466203/Top-VPNs-secre...