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Your readme points out that math and computer science are fundamentally very similar, maybe the same - do you also have objections to the fact that math experti

by wyager 5y ago

Your readme points out that math and computer science are fundamentally very similar, maybe the same - do you also have objections to the fact that math expertise follows a similar distribution to computer expertise? Is this math’s “fault” somehow? You seem to be assuming that the current state of affairs is based on some kind of human failure rather than a natural outcome, but I’m not sure that explanation generalizes. If you really think you can “fix” the distribution of computer experts with a new language, do you think you can “fix” the distribution of math users by expressing math in a certain way?

jcburnham 5y ago
I think the same problems manifest in math, but to a different degree and in a different way. We do have some expectation of universal mathematics literacy, or at least math is a required subject in most schools around the world. But I don't think that math education is generally very successful at teaching people math, as described in Lockhart's Lament: https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/Lockharts... My suspicion is that a big part of the issue is the way math is presented early on is really tedious and boring to a lot of people, in a way that could be addressed by theorem provers. I think something like the Xena Project https://xenaproject.wordpress.com/what-is-the-xena-project/ https://xenaproject.wordpress.com/what-is-the-xena-project/ is potentially an interesting development in that regard (though more for undergraduate math than grade school math). I also don't think this is anyone's "fault" really. I'm more interested in figuring out what might make things better than assigning blame. Nor do I think I personally can fix it single-handedly with a new programming language. If Yatima can move the ball forward a little bit by eventually contributing to a few people learning and falling in love with programming and math, that's more than enough for me.
- wyager 5y ago
  > We do have some expectation of universal mathematics literacy, or at least math is a required subject in most schools around the world. Certainly not to the degree required to use this programming language :) > But I don't think that math education is generally very successful at teaching people math I agree, but the most likely hypothesis that I am forced to adopt given the available evidence is that this has very little to do with how math is taught and a great deal to do with the fact that aptitude in many subjects is largely heritable. I think there are serious benefits to be harvested from improved pedagogy, but almost entirely at the top end. A worthwhile goal, certainly, but only going to exacerbate the state of affairs you’re objecting to. > I'm more interested in figuring out what might make things better than assigning blame A worthwhile goal, but I don’t think a new dependently typed functional language is likely to cause any marginal changes in the direction you’ve stated a preference for. Probably the exact opposite direction, if anything.
- thyrsus 5y ago
  One aspect of bad math education is that most folks competent in math can choose a different field than teaching and earn far more, without also figuring out how to motivate children while constrained by bureaucratized pedagogic dogma of the moment. Management is only sometimes a mob-of-children equivalent :-).

by wyager 5y ago

jcburnham 5y ago

I think the same problems manifest in math, but to a different degree and in a different way. We do have some expectation of universal mathematics literacy, or at least math is a required subject in most schools around the world. But I don't think that math education is generally very successful at teaching people math, as described in Lockhart's Lament: https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/Lockharts... My suspicion is that a big part of the issue is the way math is presented early on is really tedious and boring to a lot of people, in a way that could be addressed by theorem provers. I think something like the Xena Project https://xenaproject.wordpress.com/what-is-the-xena-project/ https://xenaproject.wordpress.com/what-is-the-xena-project/ is potentially an interesting development in that regard (though more for undergraduate math than grade school math). I also don't think this is anyone's "fault" really. I'm more interested in figuring out what might make things better than assigning blame. Nor do I think I personally can fix it single-handedly with a new programming language. If Yatima can move the ball forward a little bit by eventually contributing to a few people learning and falling in love with programming and math, that's more than enough for me.

wyager 5y ago
> We do have some expectation of universal mathematics literacy, or at least math is a required subject in most schools around the world. Certainly not to the degree required to use this programming language :) > But I don't think that math education is generally very successful at teaching people math I agree, but the most likely hypothesis that I am forced to adopt given the available evidence is that this has very little to do with how math is taught and a great deal to do with the fact that aptitude in many subjects is largely heritable. I think there are serious benefits to be harvested from improved pedagogy, but almost entirely at the top end. A worthwhile goal, certainly, but only going to exacerbate the state of affairs you’re objecting to. > I'm more interested in figuring out what might make things better than assigning blame A worthwhile goal, but I don’t think a new dependently typed functional language is likely to cause any marginal changes in the direction you’ve stated a preference for. Probably the exact opposite direction, if anything.
thyrsus 5y ago
One aspect of bad math education is that most folks competent in math can choose a different field than teaching and earn far more, without also figuring out how to motivate children while constrained by bureaucratized pedagogic dogma of the moment. Management is only sometimes a mob-of-children equivalent :-).