5 ms·

The entire purpose of these layouts is to reduce movement to keys you most use. If you really are using the F-keys hundreds of times a day then it very much is

by Jenk 5y ago

The entire purpose of these layouts is to reduce movement to keys you most use. If you really are using the F-keys hundreds of times a day then it very much is in your ergonomic interest to bring those keys closer to the home row to make accessing them easier than stretching out for them. In your specific case I'd probably map the layer modifier key on one hand, then map the F-keys like a numpad on the other so there is no same-hand chording. Though I strongly suspect you aren't using all 12 keys and instead are using say the first 5 or 6 only.

fomine3 5y ago
I use both depending on situation. There's no reason to avoid mapping a key combination function that already exist as a key. There's no strict reason to avoid adding key that can be done by key combination (but needs more vertical space, cost, and effort to build). I don't care vertical spaces much so I prefer to have dedicated function keys.
Symbiote 5y ago
Function keys are often used in combination with the mouse, and with other modifier keys. F3 is common for "Find Next", F5 for "Refresh". I don't want to use two hands for these. IntelliJ has defined shortcuts for F10, Shift+F10, Ctrl+F10 and Ctrl+Shift+F10. Adding another modifier to all these isn't great.
- Jenk 5y ago
  Alternatively, you map the most common shortcuts you use to single keys on a new layer. But whatever, you do you :)
  - xupybd 5y ago
    How do you find memorizing these? I use an ergo dox as my daily but haven't got the hang of layers. Any advice to getting more out of them? I'm also not sure how to use more layers without dedicating more keys to switch between layers?
    - Jenk 5y ago
      For general typing - I dedicate ~15 minutes a day on sites like monkeytype.com. I also completed the courses on typing.com when I first received my moonlander. Monkeytype also has settings to emulate a lot of the popular alternative layouts if you want to try any out. For shortcuts - I just conciously accepted it takes time to learn. I'd say it was about a month before I stopped reaching for the old shortcuts and started to use the layered shortcuts. It can also help force you into it by not having the old keys mapped - obviously this comes with judgement on a per key basis. I'm not asking you to unmap "A" - but unmapping/not-mapping the F-keys in their usual place coerces you into using your new mapping and you'll just get the muscle memory eventually.
    - neurotrace 5y ago
      On memorizing: for me, it hasn't been difficult. Specialty layer switches are placed on keys that are difficult to press so I don't accidentally hit them. Additionally, since they're out of the way, it's easy to remember them because of the difficulty. For more common layer switches, I extensively use dual-use keys. For example, if I tap "F" then I get the letter "f" but if I hold it, it switches to a vim-like layer. HJKL becomes arrow keys, Y becomes Ctrl+C, etc. The point is that you don't have to dedicate more keys to do layer switching. You can have the same key do different things depending on how it's used. For me, memorizing has been easy due to incremental change. I didn't come up with my new layout on day one then stick to it forever. I'd find a frequent pain point, tweak the layout, and memorize the tweak. It's easy to remember 2 or 3 key changes at a time.
- opan 5y ago
  >IntelliJ has defined shortcuts for F10, Shift+F10, Ctrl+F10 and Ctrl+Shift+F10. Adding another modifier to all these isn't great. You're thinking small here. With QMK keyboard firmware, a single key can send shift-f10 or similar. I have a top layer key that acts as ctrl-super and also as a sticky key (I don't have to hold it) because I configured a bunch of key chords in Sway that start with those keys. Mainly focusing specific programs by appid or class. So, I'll hit that key and then b for browser, v for video (mpv), etc. You can even have keys that directly type out parentheses, no shift needed. The default layout for my keyboard had that for both parens and brackets. I found more useful things to put on those keys, though. I use a Pinky4 which takes some stuff off the outer edges compared to a 60%, but has more on the inner edges, and so I stuck that key somewhere along the upper right edge of the left half. If I were using qwerty, it'd be near t and g keys. In addition to being able to run QMK on a keyboard, you could also get a macropad, or just a second keyboard (maybe something small like a planck, could go above your main one), and have all sorts of specific binds like this. I would recommend layers instead for anything not used constantly, but a case can be made for both options. I have mouse keys in a separate layer, letting me hold a modifier with my thumb and then use something similar to an arrow key cluster to move my mouse. I even have all 4 scroll directions mapped, which lets me scroll horizontally, unlike my actual mouse. Software on the computer really affects use-case I think. In qutebrowser (or firefox + tridactyl) I just hit r to refresh a page. I never miss easy access to f5. I can also copy a page's url with yy instead of doing a dance of ctrl-l and then ctrl-c. I can still hit f5 if I have to. Like if using an unusual program or another computer with my keyboard. It sounds like due to your software choices, you use the function row a lot more than me. There are some larger split keyboards, but it's worth considering changing some of your behavior/software also.
codethief 5y ago
I would generally agree, but in this particular case I do not because: 1) I hit the function keys far less often than regular character keys and 2) I rarely press the function keys while typing text since, as I mentioned, I use them to switch workspaces. In particular, I often use them while my one hand is on my mouse (think drag & drop) and, as you say, same-hand chording is out of question.
- tremon 5y ago
  I played the piano when I grew up, same-hand chording is second nature to me. It's all about wrist movement though, never strain your phalanges. I same-hand chord most close combinations: Ctrl-W is 5-3, Ctrl-C is 5-2, Alt-W is 3-1, as is Alt-P on the right-hand side. But I use two-hand combinations for almost everything else because the right-hand Ctrl and both Shift keys aren't easy to reach with opened fingers. The Ctrl key on the left is only easy to reach for me because I touch it with the side of my hand, not the tip of my pinky. I have looked at ergonomic keyboards before, and have the same reservations about the number of keys as you. I use the numpad a lot for data entry, and my previous favourite keyboard was a Logitech one that had an additional row above the numpad that contained keys for parentheses (without using shift), an equals sign and a second backspace key. I did seriously consider the Maltron L90 full-width keyboard, but I couldn't source it locally and the price was too steep for me to buy without testing it first. Having something like that keyboard coupled with a programmable (QMK) controller would be an option I'd seriously consider though, even without a separate numpad.

by Jenk 5y ago

fomine3 5y ago

I use both depending on situation. There's no reason to avoid mapping a key combination function that already exist as a key. There's no strict reason to avoid adding key that can be done by key combination (but needs more vertical space, cost, and effort to build). I don't care vertical spaces much so I prefer to have dedicated function keys.

Symbiote 5y ago

Function keys are often used in combination with the mouse, and with other modifier keys. F3 is common for "Find Next", F5 for "Refresh". I don't want to use two hands for these. IntelliJ has defined shortcuts for F10, Shift+F10, Ctrl+F10 and Ctrl+Shift+F10. Adding another modifier to all these isn't great.

Jenk 5y ago
Alternatively, you map the most common shortcuts you use to single keys on a new layer. But whatever, you do you :)
- xupybd 5y ago
  How do you find memorizing these? I use an ergo dox as my daily but haven't got the hang of layers. Any advice to getting more out of them? I'm also not sure how to use more layers without dedicating more keys to switch between layers?
  - Jenk 5y ago
    For general typing - I dedicate ~15 minutes a day on sites like monkeytype.com. I also completed the courses on typing.com when I first received my moonlander. Monkeytype also has settings to emulate a lot of the popular alternative layouts if you want to try any out. For shortcuts - I just conciously accepted it takes time to learn. I'd say it was about a month before I stopped reaching for the old shortcuts and started to use the layered shortcuts. It can also help force you into it by not having the old keys mapped - obviously this comes with judgement on a per key basis. I'm not asking you to unmap "A" - but unmapping/not-mapping the F-keys in their usual place coerces you into using your new mapping and you'll just get the muscle memory eventually.
  - neurotrace 5y ago
    On memorizing: for me, it hasn't been difficult. Specialty layer switches are placed on keys that are difficult to press so I don't accidentally hit them. Additionally, since they're out of the way, it's easy to remember them because of the difficulty. For more common layer switches, I extensively use dual-use keys. For example, if I tap "F" then I get the letter "f" but if I hold it, it switches to a vim-like layer. HJKL becomes arrow keys, Y becomes Ctrl+C, etc. The point is that you don't have to dedicate more keys to do layer switching. You can have the same key do different things depending on how it's used. For me, memorizing has been easy due to incremental change. I didn't come up with my new layout on day one then stick to it forever. I'd find a frequent pain point, tweak the layout, and memorize the tweak. It's easy to remember 2 or 3 key changes at a time.
opan 5y ago
>IntelliJ has defined shortcuts for F10, Shift+F10, Ctrl+F10 and Ctrl+Shift+F10. Adding another modifier to all these isn't great. You're thinking small here. With QMK keyboard firmware, a single key can send shift-f10 or similar. I have a top layer key that acts as ctrl-super and also as a sticky key (I don't have to hold it) because I configured a bunch of key chords in Sway that start with those keys. Mainly focusing specific programs by appid or class. So, I'll hit that key and then b for browser, v for video (mpv), etc. You can even have keys that directly type out parentheses, no shift needed. The default layout for my keyboard had that for both parens and brackets. I found more useful things to put on those keys, though. I use a Pinky4 which takes some stuff off the outer edges compared to a 60%, but has more on the inner edges, and so I stuck that key somewhere along the upper right edge of the left half. If I were using qwerty, it'd be near t and g keys. In addition to being able to run QMK on a keyboard, you could also get a macropad, or just a second keyboard (maybe something small like a planck, could go above your main one), and have all sorts of specific binds like this. I would recommend layers instead for anything not used constantly, but a case can be made for both options. I have mouse keys in a separate layer, letting me hold a modifier with my thumb and then use something similar to an arrow key cluster to move my mouse. I even have all 4 scroll directions mapped, which lets me scroll horizontally, unlike my actual mouse. Software on the computer really affects use-case I think. In qutebrowser (or firefox + tridactyl) I just hit r to refresh a page. I never miss easy access to f5. I can also copy a page's url with yy instead of doing a dance of ctrl-l and then ctrl-c. I can still hit f5 if I have to. Like if using an unusual program or another computer with my keyboard. It sounds like due to your software choices, you use the function row a lot more than me. There are some larger split keyboards, but it's worth considering changing some of your behavior/software also.

codethief 5y ago

I would generally agree, but in this particular case I do not because: 1) I hit the function keys far less often than regular character keys and 2) I rarely press the function keys while typing text since, as I mentioned, I use them to switch workspaces. In particular, I often use them while my one hand is on my mouse (think drag & drop) and, as you say, same-hand chording is out of question.

tremon 5y ago
I played the piano when I grew up, same-hand chording is second nature to me. It's all about wrist movement though, never strain your phalanges. I same-hand chord most close combinations: Ctrl-W is 5-3, Ctrl-C is 5-2, Alt-W is 3-1, as is Alt-P on the right-hand side. But I use two-hand combinations for almost everything else because the right-hand Ctrl and both Shift keys aren't easy to reach with opened fingers. The Ctrl key on the left is only easy to reach for me because I touch it with the side of my hand, not the tip of my pinky. I have looked at ergonomic keyboards before, and have the same reservations about the number of keys as you. I use the numpad a lot for data entry, and my previous favourite keyboard was a Logitech one that had an additional row above the numpad that contained keys for parentheses (without using shift), an equals sign and a second backspace key. I did seriously consider the Maltron L90 full-width keyboard, but I couldn't source it locally and the price was too steep for me to buy without testing it first. Having something like that keyboard coupled with a programmable (QMK) controller would be an option I'd seriously consider though, even without a separate numpad.