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We have plenty of data to prove the camps are real, birth rates among Muslims in the country fell through the floor. People disappear in the night, cities that

We have plenty of data to prove the camps are real, birth rates among Muslims in the country fell through the floor. People disappear in the night, cities that were once heavy Uighur communities are now devoid of them. We've intercepted shipments of Uighur Muslim hair, etc. It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. China has done a great job of making people frame it as the US/EU lying and the "whataboutism" in your last paragraph. This is also a tactic that Putin loves to use. Using Western shortcomings to justify their own tyranny.

baybal2 5y ago
> It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. Those may well be actual death camps. The stated amount of people disappeared (2m+) far exceeds just how much people you can physically fit into those camps. They may fit few hundred thousands, but not millions.
- partiallypro 5y ago
  It's possible, but I would bet most are scattered about doing slave labor, while also having been sterilized. So they get free labor and can effectively kill new generations. That to me seems like the most likely CCP method than mass executions and has a much smaller paper trail/footprint.
mxxc 5y ago
let's first address the heart of the matter, as i've said in a few comments: i think it would be great to have an explanation from china on what the hell is actually going on in xinjiang, and if those claims are correct, i obviously think that policy is atrocious. it's still not a genocide, of course, as there is no planned extermination. it's not just "not to the extreme level of the holocaust". it just isn't a genocide. it doesn't have to be a genocide to be despicable. on the data: if by "we" you mean adrian zenz then you're out of luck when it comes to quality. i'd like to see better sources than someone who thinks he's in a mission from god like he's the blues brothers. china hasn't done "a great job" at framing the west for lying otherwise there wouldn't be a wikipedia page and we wouldn't be discussing this on hacker news. the sad reality is that china doesn't give a shit about its reputation abroad, which is why many of the rebuttals to those claims are in chinese. one is here: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1302992673540911104/photo/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13029926735409111... – it's by the chinese state media so one can still claim they're lying. on the "cities that were once heavy uyghur communities ..." as i mentioned above: kashgar still has a lot of uyghurs. they go to their mosques and so on. what is true, however, is that china is encouraging resettlement of han chinese (they've been doing it for decades), for the sole purpose of making the uyghurs a minority in their own land. this is something that personally i don't like, but (here comes the whataboutism) i have not seen a single piece of criticism when this happened literally everywhere else, minus of course when it was accompanied by planned extermination, which only applies to anatolia's christian minorities, as the jews were already a small minority in the locations that were affected by the deportations.

baybal2 5y ago

> It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. Those may well be actual death camps. The stated amount of people disappeared (2m+) far exceeds just how much people you can physically fit into those camps. They may fit few hundred thousands, but not millions.

partiallypro 5y ago
It's possible, but I would bet most are scattered about doing slave labor, while also having been sterilized. So they get free labor and can effectively kill new generations. That to me seems like the most likely CCP method than mass executions and has a much smaller paper trail/footprint.

mxxc 5y ago

let's first address the heart of the matter, as i've said in a few comments: i think it would be great to have an explanation from china on what the hell is actually going on in xinjiang, and if those claims are correct, i obviously think that policy is atrocious. it's still not a genocide, of course, as there is no planned extermination. it's not just "not to the extreme level of the holocaust". it just isn't a genocide. it doesn't have to be a genocide to be despicable. on the data: if by "we" you mean adrian zenz then you're out of luck when it comes to quality. i'd like to see better sources than someone who thinks he's in a mission from god like he's the blues brothers. china hasn't done "a great job" at framing the west for lying otherwise there wouldn't be a wikipedia page and we wouldn't be discussing this on hacker news. the sad reality is that china doesn't give a shit about its reputation abroad, which is why many of the rebuttals to those claims are in chinese. one is here: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1302992673540911104/photo/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13029926735409111... – it's by the chinese state media so one can still claim they're lying. on the "cities that were once heavy uyghur communities ..." as i mentioned above: kashgar still has a lot of uyghurs. they go to their mosques and so on. what is true, however, is that china is encouraging resettlement of han chinese (they've been doing it for decades), for the sole purpose of making the uyghurs a minority in their own land. this is something that personally i don't like, but (here comes the whataboutism) i have not seen a single piece of criticism when this happened literally everywhere else, minus of course when it was accompanied by planned extermination, which only applies to anatolia's christian minorities, as the jews were already a small minority in the locations that were affected by the deportations.