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Part of it may also be that people don't want to know. Take the ongoing Uyghur genocide right now, but most are ignoring it. Why isn't it an emergency and headl

Part of it may also be that people don't want to know. Take the ongoing Uyghur genocide right now, but most are ignoring it. Why isn't it an emergency and headline news every day? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

decremental 5y ago
Because it's China and the ruling class in America decided it would not be in their interests to press them on the issue. So they spread propaganda to dismiss it as a Conspiracy Theory. Which is the mental short circuit the media uses to shut down any further thought on the matter.
mxxc 5y ago
they're not ignoring it, plenty of countries have been recognising it. the issue is that much of the available information isn't exactly reliable, a lot of the research comes from one single person (an ultra-christian extremist), and plenty of the people who have been detained are leaving from the front door, unlike the armenians in 1895-1925 and the jews in 1943-1945. mosques are still open and there are plenty of videos of 2021 eid al fitr in xinjiang. not saying "there is nothing going on there" and "those incarcerations are complete lies" but the whole thing is fishy, especially considering that there are political motives behind screaming bloody murder – for comparison, there is literally zero western pressure on israel on the occupation issue, and the EU is blatantly ignoring the insane conditions migrants are subjected to on the other side of the EU barriers.
- partiallypro 5y ago
  We have plenty of data to prove the camps are real, birth rates among Muslims in the country fell through the floor. People disappear in the night, cities that were once heavy Uighur communities are now devoid of them. We've intercepted shipments of Uighur Muslim hair, etc. It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. China has done a great job of making people frame it as the US/EU lying and the "whataboutism" in your last paragraph. This is also a tactic that Putin loves to use. Using Western shortcomings to justify their own tyranny.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. Those may well be actual death camps. The stated amount of people disappeared (2m+) far exceeds just how much people you can physically fit into those camps. They may fit few hundred thousands, but not millions.
    - partiallypro 5y ago
      It's possible, but I would bet most are scattered about doing slave labor, while also having been sterilized. So they get free labor and can effectively kill new generations. That to me seems like the most likely CCP method than mass executions and has a much smaller paper trail/footprint.
  - mxxc 5y ago
    let's first address the heart of the matter, as i've said in a few comments: i think it would be great to have an explanation from china on what the hell is actually going on in xinjiang, and if those claims are correct, i obviously think that policy is atrocious. it's still not a genocide, of course, as there is no planned extermination. it's not just "not to the extreme level of the holocaust". it just isn't a genocide. it doesn't have to be a genocide to be despicable. on the data: if by "we" you mean adrian zenz then you're out of luck when it comes to quality. i'd like to see better sources than someone who thinks he's in a mission from god like he's the blues brothers. china hasn't done "a great job" at framing the west for lying otherwise there wouldn't be a wikipedia page and we wouldn't be discussing this on hacker news. the sad reality is that china doesn't give a shit about its reputation abroad, which is why many of the rebuttals to those claims are in chinese. one is here: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1302992673540911104/photo/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13029926735409111... – it's by the chinese state media so one can still claim they're lying. on the "cities that were once heavy uyghur communities ..." as i mentioned above: kashgar still has a lot of uyghurs. they go to their mosques and so on. what is true, however, is that china is encouraging resettlement of han chinese (they've been doing it for decades), for the sole purpose of making the uyghurs a minority in their own land. this is something that personally i don't like, but (here comes the whataboutism) i have not seen a single piece of criticism when this happened literally everywhere else, minus of course when it was accompanied by planned extermination, which only applies to anatolia's christian minorities, as the jews were already a small minority in the locations that were affected by the deportations.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  > and the EU is blatantly ignoring the insane conditions migrants are subjected to on the other side of the EU barriers What would you propose to do?
  - mxxc 5y ago
    this is the same question that china asks when confronted with the uyghur problem. they believe they are fighting terrorism and extremism and those camps are (part of) the solution. we can disagree with them – and if the extreme claims about those camps are correct, then i do disagree with them. on the EU issue: there isn't one single solution since all the cases are different. a few come to mind. i would not pay blood money to morocco and libya to "keep them at bay" because the EU can't just champion human rights at home and then fund concentration camp-like establishments outside of its borders – we are not funding the ones in xinjiang, we are funding the ones in the libyan litoral. a way more efficient refugee processing scheme with the participation of everyone else would be ethically better. much as i disliked him, matteo renzi put it very well for the eastern european extremists: no refugees, no money. on an EU level i'd also crack down on pushbacks (such as the ones happening in spain and in greece), where the carrot should be a better refugee distribution. let's not forget that europe's exploitation caused this problem, it's also on us to help people and figure out a solution.
    - smegger001 5y ago
      the Uighurs aren't a problem though (unless your problem is that they aren't ethnically Han chineses) they are people living in their homes in their own country
      - mxxc 5y ago
        the "uyghur problem" for china is that there is an ethnic minority that is substantially poorer than the average, worse educated, less integrated and some of which has been involved in terrorist attacks. this is the same thing that france calls "separatism". they use a better word but it's inevitably about muslims. as i have said a thousand times though, i don't think they're approaching this "problem" the right way.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  You are participating in the denial when you make statements like this. Let's say we start at our most charitable to the ruling party: there's no work camps, Uyghurs are treated fairly, paid a decent wage. Why then are the compounds, which we can see from the sky, off-limits to human rights observers? Why are these complexes expanding at an alarming rate? I expect evidence. I do not get upset because it is the fashion to do so. If someone calls me a liar and demands proof I didn't mislead them, I do my best to display evidence in my defense. All that the CCP offers is threats to other sovereign nations. There is a pattern of behavior from the CCP which indicates duplicity and untruthfulness from the destruction of viral lab samples in Wuhan, to entire fishing fleets going dark off sovereign waters. Every day we receive more of these reports of bad behavior. If China wants us to believe them, they need to start producing evidence. Let observers in. Show the world.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mxxc 5y ago
    there are a few rhetorical tricks here. what am i denying exactly? the genocide? yes i am. it's not a genocide. there isn't a planned extermination of uyghurs going on. there have been planned exterminations of armenians from anatolia and jews from europe. on the other hand: am i denying the existence of fishy "re-education camps" targeting one ethnic group and one only, where they are brought in under very opaque circumstances? no, i am not denying that. if you want a very long read with some context behind some of those claims, here's one: https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang there are a bunch of things there, a full timeline of the "conflict", a couple of articles debunking both poor google maps journalism and a few poorly-made BBC & vice docs on the matter. there's also the fact that some of the "punishments" against the uyghurs are forcing children to go to school, to mandarin-speaking public ones even, which is the same policy most countries in the world adopt (a recent request in france to partially allow schooling in catalan in the region of perpignan has been rejected). there are some claims that state-funded xinjiang schools are even bilingual but i haven't dug enough on it. i won't comment on the wuhan issue because i don't really know enough about it, but as someone who is born in an island with plenty of US bases i laugh at everyone claiming china is "flexing their muscles" with their navy. to be clear: nobody approaching any of those bases gets allowed in, just like in the "xinjiang camps". does this excuse china? no, it doesn't, but we should probably be fair in our judgment.
nsoonhui 5y ago
You are not wrong; the Muslim's silence on this is deafening.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > the Muslim's silence on this is deafening. Which Muslim?
  - nsoonhui 5y ago
    I mean, Muslim countries and Muslim NGOs and the like, the same people who were making the noise when Israel was fighting with HAMAS.

decremental 5y ago

Because it's China and the ruling class in America decided it would not be in their interests to press them on the issue. So they spread propaganda to dismiss it as a Conspiracy Theory. Which is the mental short circuit the media uses to shut down any further thought on the matter.

mxxc 5y ago

they're not ignoring it, plenty of countries have been recognising it. the issue is that much of the available information isn't exactly reliable, a lot of the research comes from one single person (an ultra-christian extremist), and plenty of the people who have been detained are leaving from the front door, unlike the armenians in 1895-1925 and the jews in 1943-1945. mosques are still open and there are plenty of videos of 2021 eid al fitr in xinjiang. not saying "there is nothing going on there" and "those incarcerations are complete lies" but the whole thing is fishy, especially considering that there are political motives behind screaming bloody murder – for comparison, there is literally zero western pressure on israel on the occupation issue, and the EU is blatantly ignoring the insane conditions migrants are subjected to on the other side of the EU barriers.

partiallypro 5y ago
We have plenty of data to prove the camps are real, birth rates among Muslims in the country fell through the floor. People disappear in the night, cities that were once heavy Uighur communities are now devoid of them. We've intercepted shipments of Uighur Muslim hair, etc. It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. China has done a great job of making people frame it as the US/EU lying and the "whataboutism" in your last paragraph. This is also a tactic that Putin loves to use. Using Western shortcomings to justify their own tyranny.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > It's not to the extreme level of the Holocaust with mass executions, but it is real. Those may well be actual death camps. The stated amount of people disappeared (2m+) far exceeds just how much people you can physically fit into those camps. They may fit few hundred thousands, but not millions.
  - partiallypro 5y ago
    It's possible, but I would bet most are scattered about doing slave labor, while also having been sterilized. So they get free labor and can effectively kill new generations. That to me seems like the most likely CCP method than mass executions and has a much smaller paper trail/footprint.
- mxxc 5y ago
  let's first address the heart of the matter, as i've said in a few comments: i think it would be great to have an explanation from china on what the hell is actually going on in xinjiang, and if those claims are correct, i obviously think that policy is atrocious. it's still not a genocide, of course, as there is no planned extermination. it's not just "not to the extreme level of the holocaust". it just isn't a genocide. it doesn't have to be a genocide to be despicable. on the data: if by "we" you mean adrian zenz then you're out of luck when it comes to quality. i'd like to see better sources than someone who thinks he's in a mission from god like he's the blues brothers. china hasn't done "a great job" at framing the west for lying otherwise there wouldn't be a wikipedia page and we wouldn't be discussing this on hacker news. the sad reality is that china doesn't give a shit about its reputation abroad, which is why many of the rebuttals to those claims are in chinese. one is here: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1302992673540911104/photo/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13029926735409111... – it's by the chinese state media so one can still claim they're lying. on the "cities that were once heavy uyghur communities ..." as i mentioned above: kashgar still has a lot of uyghurs. they go to their mosques and so on. what is true, however, is that china is encouraging resettlement of han chinese (they've been doing it for decades), for the sole purpose of making the uyghurs a minority in their own land. this is something that personally i don't like, but (here comes the whataboutism) i have not seen a single piece of criticism when this happened literally everywhere else, minus of course when it was accompanied by planned extermination, which only applies to anatolia's christian minorities, as the jews were already a small minority in the locations that were affected by the deportations.
rad_gruchalski 5y ago
> and the EU is blatantly ignoring the insane conditions migrants are subjected to on the other side of the EU barriers What would you propose to do?
- mxxc 5y ago
  this is the same question that china asks when confronted with the uyghur problem. they believe they are fighting terrorism and extremism and those camps are (part of) the solution. we can disagree with them – and if the extreme claims about those camps are correct, then i do disagree with them. on the EU issue: there isn't one single solution since all the cases are different. a few come to mind. i would not pay blood money to morocco and libya to "keep them at bay" because the EU can't just champion human rights at home and then fund concentration camp-like establishments outside of its borders – we are not funding the ones in xinjiang, we are funding the ones in the libyan litoral. a way more efficient refugee processing scheme with the participation of everyone else would be ethically better. much as i disliked him, matteo renzi put it very well for the eastern european extremists: no refugees, no money. on an EU level i'd also crack down on pushbacks (such as the ones happening in spain and in greece), where the carrot should be a better refugee distribution. let's not forget that europe's exploitation caused this problem, it's also on us to help people and figure out a solution.
  - smegger001 5y ago
    the Uighurs aren't a problem though (unless your problem is that they aren't ethnically Han chineses) they are people living in their homes in their own country
    - mxxc 5y ago
      the "uyghur problem" for china is that there is an ethnic minority that is substantially poorer than the average, worse educated, less integrated and some of which has been involved in terrorist attacks. this is the same thing that france calls "separatism". they use a better word but it's inevitably about muslims. as i have said a thousand times though, i don't think they're approaching this "problem" the right way.
emptysongglass 5y ago
You are participating in the denial when you make statements like this. Let's say we start at our most charitable to the ruling party: there's no work camps, Uyghurs are treated fairly, paid a decent wage. Why then are the compounds, which we can see from the sky, off-limits to human rights observers? Why are these complexes expanding at an alarming rate? I expect evidence. I do not get upset because it is the fashion to do so. If someone calls me a liar and demands proof I didn't mislead them, I do my best to display evidence in my defense. All that the CCP offers is threats to other sovereign nations. There is a pattern of behavior from the CCP which indicates duplicity and untruthfulness from the destruction of viral lab samples in Wuhan, to entire fishing fleets going dark off sovereign waters. Every day we receive more of these reports of bad behavior. If China wants us to believe them, they need to start producing evidence. Let observers in. Show the world.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mxxc 5y ago
  there are a few rhetorical tricks here. what am i denying exactly? the genocide? yes i am. it's not a genocide. there isn't a planned extermination of uyghurs going on. there have been planned exterminations of armenians from anatolia and jews from europe. on the other hand: am i denying the existence of fishy "re-education camps" targeting one ethnic group and one only, where they are brought in under very opaque circumstances? no, i am not denying that. if you want a very long read with some context behind some of those claims, here's one: https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang there are a bunch of things there, a full timeline of the "conflict", a couple of articles debunking both poor google maps journalism and a few poorly-made BBC & vice docs on the matter. there's also the fact that some of the "punishments" against the uyghurs are forcing children to go to school, to mandarin-speaking public ones even, which is the same policy most countries in the world adopt (a recent request in france to partially allow schooling in catalan in the region of perpignan has been rejected). there are some claims that state-funded xinjiang schools are even bilingual but i haven't dug enough on it. i won't comment on the wuhan issue because i don't really know enough about it, but as someone who is born in an island with plenty of US bases i laugh at everyone claiming china is "flexing their muscles" with their navy. to be clear: nobody approaching any of those bases gets allowed in, just like in the "xinjiang camps". does this excuse china? no, it doesn't, but we should probably be fair in our judgment.

nsoonhui 5y ago

You are not wrong; the Muslim's silence on this is deafening.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> the Muslim's silence on this is deafening. Which Muslim?
- nsoonhui 5y ago
  I mean, Muslim countries and Muslim NGOs and the like, the same people who were making the noise when Israel was fighting with HAMAS.