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I don't think it's a coincidence that we've seen a rise in holocaust denial, nazi sympathisers, etc. as this population has left us. It's a sad thought really,

I don't think it's a coincidence that we've seen a rise in holocaust denial, nazi sympathisers, etc. as this population has left us. It's a sad thought really, no number of history books will ever have the same effect as talking to your grandpa about his experiences on the beaches at Normandy, or marching in to liberate a concentration camp. I fear we're on the brink of forgetting a lot of lessons.

CodeBeater 5y ago
I also fear that due to the extreme "politification" of everything the narratives that survive might not be accurate. But oh well, "the victors write history" I guess.
- panzagl 5y ago
  I don't know if you meant it to sound this way, but this comment comes off as sympathetic to the Nazis- you're implying the concentration camp 'narrative' is not accurate, but imposed by the 'victors' (Allies).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dalbasal 5y ago
  Who do you consider to be the victors in this case?
goodcanadian 5y ago
I've long felt that the last 20-30 years have shown a slow reversal from international cooperation back to nationalist protectionism. I've wondered whether this is a consequence of the dying out of the generation that experienced just how badly wrong that can go.
brudgers 5y ago
My grandpa was a paratrooper in the 504 PIR from Bizerte into Germany. The times he talked about the war with me, he talked about times he was scared shitless. Husky Two. Strafed in Italy. Jeep blown off the road by artillery fire. Holed up in a barn at night in the Ardennes snow. The most glamorous thing he ever mentioned was bivouacing somewhere with enough French wine to keep a functional drunk on…that story was over glasses of Port because his war experience inclined him to functional drunks for the rest of his living days. I don’t recall ever meeting a veteran who thought the important lesson was D-day or liberating the camps. Invariably the point was how much war sucks.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > Invariably the point was how much war sucks. My experience has been that when I meet people who saw actual combat, they invariably focus on how much it sucks. The folks who glorify it seem to always be the people who never experienced it first hand.
seattle_spring 5y ago
Not to mention that many folks (including a lot of HN -- see: the recent thread on the ACLU) seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  > Not to mention that many folks (including a lot of HN -- see: the recent thread on the ACLU) seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation. If this is true, why not give some links to a few HN comments, if not a lot, to add a lil evidence to what seems, on the face of it, a truly ridiculous claim.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    It's less ridiculous if you take the charitable interpretation of the comment as they are referring to those in support of generic free speech which often devolves into debates about these extreme cases in isolation rather than there is a group campaigning here with the literal text "spreading holocaust denial is a right" as a singular primary/starting issue. I think this is the thread they were referring to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27414920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27414920 or rather at least that's what I found with Google. Edit: Very relevant follow-up to that post just landed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27424421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27424421
    - yesenadam 5y ago
      Ok thanks (replying to both). I thought I was being super-charitable asking for evidence instead of just downvoting, flagging and perhaps complaining. I don't hear any charitable interpretation applied to me, rather telling me I was the one exaggerating here! I'm not in the USA, like about 50% of HN, and know very little about the subjects, so asked only about the HN-part of the claim, that > a lot of HN ... seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation. How many comments or HN users until you get to reasonably call them "a lot"? What percentage? What if it's actually 0.0001%? How bad the "holocaust denialism and misinformation" before "fighting to the death for the right to spread it" is reasonable? Especially in a comment particularly targeting misinformation, such extreme hyperbole and writing like that apparently breaks the guidelines in a lot of ways. Also, being charitable, different people read different parts of HN, maybe the GP reads mostly the political topics with disgusting comments, and "a lot of HN ... seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation" is reasonable. UH but no, it's ridiculous exaggeration, is precisely an area such a thing is not helpful, even on a very charitable interpretation. "Fighting to the death" really means literally that, or anything like it? or..just writing one or a few comments on HN? So, what would you or anyone say the "strongest plausible interpretation" of "a lot of HN ... seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation" is? (genuine question) I'm struggling to give it any remotely plausible interpretation, even assuming it's extreme exaggeration. Even in the "strongest plausible interpretation", though, it seems to me, drastically changing the meaning of most of its words in favour of the writer, the comment is still hysterical, break a lot of guidelines[0], and is itself misinformation. Edit: Sorry, I should have had morning coffee before writing above comment. (Also I have the flu!) I reread your comment, you seem to be saying that you thought the GP was trying to say in essence "a lot of people on HN support total free speech" (or whatever you want to call that, if it even makes sense). OK! That does make some sense. But still, describing that as "fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation" seems the kind of writing that regularly gets people banned from HN. It still breaks the same guidelines. Thank you, much appreciated! [0] You know, like Please don't fulminate, Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive., Eschew flamebait., Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. etc
names_are_hard 5y ago
What will become of all the memories? Are they to scatter with the dust in the breeze? Who will stand before the world, knowing what to say When the very last survivor fades away? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcyeXd7Takk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcyeXd7Takk
ptoa 5y ago
Forget about talking to grandpa to remember lessons. Most Europeans who fought in World War 2 either participated in or experienced the horrors of World War 1 or had live family members who did. The chimp brain of ours is highly over rated in what lessons it can learn from blundering about. The more complex the issue blundering is garaunteed no matter what lessons are available and who tells a good story. Look no further than Afghanistan. No lessons learnt. The only thing to do when things get too complex is get out of the room and run for the hills. Let the buffoon class who think they have a handle on complexity because of their grandpas stories blunder away. When the dust settles return and rebuild.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  "get out of the room and run for the hills" This is a good lesson from history. The Jews who stayed in Europe say that it crept up gradually, an actual slippery slope, and this is one of the reasons they didn't uproot themselves until it was too late. If you're not a member of the majority group in society and you feel a fomenting hatred towards you, it's probably a good idea to sell your stuff and run away quickly. The downside of a false positive isn't that bad. Fortunately in modern wealthy countries few have had to do that in a rather long time.
  - guythedudebro 5y ago
    > If you're not a member of the majority group in society and you feel a fomenting hatred towards you, it's probably a good idea to sell your stuff and run away quickly. What if you feel a hatred fomenting towards you but you're still the projected majority for at least a few more years? Lolol jk jk please don't take this seriously.
dizzant 5y ago
> "They were standing there, all of them in [prisoner] uniforms, only eyes, only eyes, very narrow - that was very terrible, very terrible," he said. My grandfather helped to liberate Dachau. The only detail he ever told us about that day was how thin the prisoners were. The men were light enough to carry out two at a time, one on each arm; and they felt fragile, like small children.
fighterpilot 5y ago
It would be a good idea to teach kids about the biological and psychological factors behind these atrocities as an addendum to the classic history curriculum. It'd give them a more well rounded interdisciplinary understanding of exactly how this happens and hopefully give them a better ability to introspect if they get caught up in similar mob insanity in their future.

CodeBeater 5y ago

I also fear that due to the extreme "politification" of everything the narratives that survive might not be accurate. But oh well, "the victors write history" I guess.

panzagl 5y ago
I don't know if you meant it to sound this way, but this comment comes off as sympathetic to the Nazis- you're implying the concentration camp 'narrative' is not accurate, but imposed by the 'victors' (Allies).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dalbasal 5y ago
Who do you consider to be the victors in this case?

goodcanadian 5y ago

I've long felt that the last 20-30 years have shown a slow reversal from international cooperation back to nationalist protectionism. I've wondered whether this is a consequence of the dying out of the generation that experienced just how badly wrong that can go.

brudgers 5y ago

My grandpa was a paratrooper in the 504 PIR from Bizerte into Germany. The times he talked about the war with me, he talked about times he was scared shitless. Husky Two. Strafed in Italy. Jeep blown off the road by artillery fire. Holed up in a barn at night in the Ardennes snow. The most glamorous thing he ever mentioned was bivouacing somewhere with enough French wine to keep a functional drunk on…that story was over glasses of Port because his war experience inclined him to functional drunks for the rest of his living days. I don’t recall ever meeting a veteran who thought the important lesson was D-day or liberating the camps. Invariably the point was how much war sucks.

rootusrootus 5y ago
> Invariably the point was how much war sucks. My experience has been that when I meet people who saw actual combat, they invariably focus on how much it sucks. The folks who glorify it seem to always be the people who never experienced it first hand.

seattle_spring 5y ago

Not to mention that many folks (including a lot of HN -- see: the recent thread on the ACLU) seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation.

yesenadam 5y ago
> Not to mention that many folks (including a lot of HN -- see: the recent thread on the ACLU) seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation. If this is true, why not give some links to a few HN comments, if not a lot, to add a lil evidence to what seems, on the face of it, a truly ridiculous claim.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  It's less ridiculous if you take the charitable interpretation of the comment as they are referring to those in support of generic free speech which often devolves into debates about these extreme cases in isolation rather than there is a group campaigning here with the literal text "spreading holocaust denial is a right" as a singular primary/starting issue. I think this is the thread they were referring to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27414920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27414920 or rather at least that's what I found with Google. Edit: Very relevant follow-up to that post just landed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27424421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27424421
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    Ok thanks (replying to both). I thought I was being super-charitable asking for evidence instead of just downvoting, flagging and perhaps complaining. I don't hear any charitable interpretation applied to me, rather telling me I was the one exaggerating here! I'm not in the USA, like about 50% of HN, and know very little about the subjects, so asked only about the HN-part of the claim, that > a lot of HN ... seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation. How many comments or HN users until you get to reasonably call them "a lot"? What percentage? What if it's actually 0.0001%? How bad the "holocaust denialism and misinformation" before "fighting to the death for the right to spread it" is reasonable? Especially in a comment particularly targeting misinformation, such extreme hyperbole and writing like that apparently breaks the guidelines in a lot of ways. Also, being charitable, different people read different parts of HN, maybe the GP reads mostly the political topics with disgusting comments, and "a lot of HN ... seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation" is reasonable. UH but no, it's ridiculous exaggeration, is precisely an area such a thing is not helpful, even on a very charitable interpretation. "Fighting to the death" really means literally that, or anything like it? or..just writing one or a few comments on HN? So, what would you or anyone say the "strongest plausible interpretation" of "a lot of HN ... seem to be fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation" is? (genuine question) I'm struggling to give it any remotely plausible interpretation, even assuming it's extreme exaggeration. Even in the "strongest plausible interpretation", though, it seems to me, drastically changing the meaning of most of its words in favour of the writer, the comment is still hysterical, break a lot of guidelines[0], and is itself misinformation. Edit: Sorry, I should have had morning coffee before writing above comment. (Also I have the flu!) I reread your comment, you seem to be saying that you thought the GP was trying to say in essence "a lot of people on HN support total free speech" (or whatever you want to call that, if it even makes sense). OK! That does make some sense. But still, describing that as "fighting to the death for the right to spread holocaust denialism and misinformation" seems the kind of writing that regularly gets people banned from HN. It still breaks the same guidelines. Thank you, much appreciated! [0] You know, like Please don't fulminate, Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive., Eschew flamebait., Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. etc

names_are_hard 5y ago

What will become of all the memories? Are they to scatter with the dust in the breeze? Who will stand before the world, knowing what to say When the very last survivor fades away? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcyeXd7Takk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XcyeXd7Takk

ptoa 5y ago

Forget about talking to grandpa to remember lessons. Most Europeans who fought in World War 2 either participated in or experienced the horrors of World War 1 or had live family members who did. The chimp brain of ours is highly over rated in what lessons it can learn from blundering about. The more complex the issue blundering is garaunteed no matter what lessons are available and who tells a good story. Look no further than Afghanistan. No lessons learnt. The only thing to do when things get too complex is get out of the room and run for the hills. Let the buffoon class who think they have a handle on complexity because of their grandpas stories blunder away. When the dust settles return and rebuild.

fighterpilot 5y ago
"get out of the room and run for the hills" This is a good lesson from history. The Jews who stayed in Europe say that it crept up gradually, an actual slippery slope, and this is one of the reasons they didn't uproot themselves until it was too late. If you're not a member of the majority group in society and you feel a fomenting hatred towards you, it's probably a good idea to sell your stuff and run away quickly. The downside of a false positive isn't that bad. Fortunately in modern wealthy countries few have had to do that in a rather long time.
- guythedudebro 5y ago
  > If you're not a member of the majority group in society and you feel a fomenting hatred towards you, it's probably a good idea to sell your stuff and run away quickly. What if you feel a hatred fomenting towards you but you're still the projected majority for at least a few more years? Lolol jk jk please don't take this seriously.

dizzant 5y ago

> "They were standing there, all of them in [prisoner] uniforms, only eyes, only eyes, very narrow - that was very terrible, very terrible," he said. My grandfather helped to liberate Dachau. The only detail he ever told us about that day was how thin the prisoners were. The men were light enough to carry out two at a time, one on each arm; and they felt fragile, like small children.

fighterpilot 5y ago

It would be a good idea to teach kids about the biological and psychological factors behind these atrocities as an addendum to the classic history curriculum. It'd give them a more well rounded interdisciplinary understanding of exactly how this happens and hopefully give them a better ability to introspect if they get caught up in similar mob insanity in their future.